Getting free of toxic tech culture • Hacker News Board

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#171

Post by tlb » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:38 AM UTC

bsder wrote: post #131

tlb wrote: post #44

I predict people will claim "our culture isn't that toxic. Some of those things happen, but they don't bother me much." If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. So don't ask "would this bother me?" Ask "would it bother someone?" And since you can't predict this from inside your head, you have to rely on firsthand acc…

> If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. Maybe. But why don't those same people build companies that don't have this behavior and out-compete the companies that do? It's not enough to eliminate the behavior, you have to eliminate the incentive . To that end, founding a "service" to help me be diverse doesn't convin…

I think they'll find customers.

If I ran a company and I was losing good people because of a toxic culture, I wouldn't say "Oh well, I guess those people I lost will start their own companies and out-compete me, and everyone will be happy." I'd want to fix my toxic culture and keep the people and win.

I used to think (terribly naively) that a company having a particular type as a founder would ensure that all such people would feel welcome there. But I have seen that not be the case.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#172

Post by tptacek » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:38 AM UTC

tlb wrote: post #144

tptacek wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a consultant whose client portfolio used to include F500's in health, insurance, and NY finance, and whose portfolio now includes nothing but startups, and having had the pleasure of whiling away many languorous afternoons in the cube farms of those companies, I find it extraordinarily hard to believe that the average startup tech employee is "walking on eggshells" and being performatively docile compared to the d…

How could tech people be more in touch with that, other than by consulting?

That's an interesting question I didn't see coming. I wouldn't want to recommend actually taking a job at ADP or Allstate! I'd be interested in hearing suggestions here too.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#173

Post by nostrademons » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:38 AM UTC

finnthehuman wrote: post #123

tlb wrote: post #44

I predict people will claim "our culture isn't that toxic. Some of those things happen, but they don't bother me much." If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. So don't ask "would this bother me?" Ask "would it bother someone?" And since you can't predict this from inside your head, you have to rely on firsthand acc…

>If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. I used to think like this. After years and years of refining my own behavior, a non-work, non-"tech" friend let it slip that my fiends though I had turned into a non-confrontational, lawyer-sounding, people-pleaser. He wasn't wrong, I had gotten in the habit of always walking…

I've found a useful model is to think of your behavior as a selection-bias filter on the people you hang out with. I don't think it's reasonable to expect everybody to like what you're doing. People don't even agree with each other, so if nobody disapproves of what you're doing or how you conduct your life, chances are you're not doing anything important or actually having a life. A group where everybody agrees on everything is a cult, not a culture.

But if nobody likes you and wants to hang out with you, you have a problem. And if the people who like what you're doing are people that you yourself don't really like, you're probably not being true to yourself. You want to be in a situation where there's a core group of people you like and respect who also like and respect you. If you've got that, who cares what other people think?

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#174

Post by adamsea » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:41 AM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #140

adamsea wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, James Damore, the guy who thought he knew stuff. Seems like that is the worst possible example. It's like, self-defeating. It's like, yes, lets pick the guy who yet again wants to rationalize institutionalized sexism with bad science and thought it would be OK to tell his _coworkers_ why some of them are, scientifically, inferior to him. And expect for nobody to take offense to this and that he would not get fire…

Did you read the link? Those aren’t his words, they’re straight from Google employees.

I read his memo, the Wired article explaining his poor interpretation of existing science, the Quora article explaining his poor interpretation of existing science, and the recent Gizmodo article about the lawsuit. I glanced at your twitter link; once I saw it was about his lawsuit I shifted gears to the root of the issue.

I thought Damore's comment in footnote 9, when discussing compensation in the workplace, that "Considering women spend more money than men" was particularly insightful ;) /s

https://medium.com/@Cernovich/full-james-damore-memo-uncenso...

https://www.wired.com/story/the-pernicious-science-of-james-...

"The problem is, the science in Damore’s memo is still very much in play, and his analysis of its implications is at best politically naive and at worst dangerous"

https://gizmodo.com/lets-be-very-clear-about-what-happened-t...

"But despite the legal gymnastics of Damore’s attorneys, getting fired for his memo wasn’t discrimination, and it certainly wasn’t censorship. As Google CEO Sundar Pichai said at the time of the memo’s circulation, it violated the company’s policies, perpetuating sexist ideologies. Damore disclosed to his non-male colleagues that he believes that they are predisposed to being worse at their jobs than males. Former Google engineer Yonatan Zunger sums it up nicely in this line from his blog post responding to Damore’s memo: “You have just created a textbook hostile workplace environment.” In a workplace, you can’t say whatever you’d like without consequences—violating a company’s code of conduct is grounds for firing."

https://www.quora.com/What-do-scientists-think-about-the-bio...

"TL;DR: Yes, men and women are biologically different — which doesn’t mean what the author thinks it does. The article perniciously misrepresents the nature and significance of known sex differences to advance what appears to be a covert alt-right agenda."

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#175

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:41 AM UTC

doesnt_know wrote: post #115

j4ship wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I am not responsible for others feelings. There should be clear rules of conduct at any job and a clear process of enforcement. This make the situation fair and certain. One easy rule is that if someone says "Only talk to me about work." then the other person has to respect it. No forcing of social acceptance , no shaming the other to believe what you believe, just focus on what you were hired for. This i…

Can I ask what you did in your role as a manager? Where I work, even though there are some titles that have the word "manager" in, the organization refers to anyone that have people report to them as "people leaders". They are responsible for the well being of the those that report to them. If you take away the part where you are responsible for your people, what is left? Even if you take the most clinical and roboti…

[deleted]

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#176

Post by majormajor » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:44 AM UTC

tlb wrote: post #144

tptacek wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a consultant whose client portfolio used to include F500's in health, insurance, and NY finance, and whose portfolio now includes nothing but startups, and having had the pleasure of whiling away many languorous afternoons in the cube farms of those companies, I find it extraordinarily hard to believe that the average startup tech employee is "walking on eggshells" and being performatively docile compared to the d…

How could tech people be more in touch with that, other than by consulting?

Reading and talking to people are generally the best ones. I've learned about conditions in other industries by talking to friends who work in them and also reading articles in more measured publications (I would take anything on e.g. huffpost with a big grain of salt, or a Vox blog for that matter, to say nothing of Fox News or other cable/radio sources :o).

So maybe step 0 is: find people who know about them, before you can do the talking and reading. The New Yorker is my general go-to for measured introductions to new domains: the authors biases are fairly simple to spot when relevant (leftish-intellectual-in-US-terms) and the level of detail is usually high.

Sadly, I don't have a ton more at hand, other than one rule that I'd highly recommend to use as a filter: if you get the feeling the person is trying to make you angry, find something else. Polemics are rarely the best way to be introduced to a topic.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#177

Post by HowdyDang » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:44 AM UTC

I fleshed out the core assertions by the author to help people understand her argument better.

https://i.imgur.com/aDU9BX9.png

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#178

Post by JohnHaugeland » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:45 AM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #75

adamsea wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A) With respect, your experience and the author's experience may vary, for a variety of reasons, so I'm not sure it makes sense to pit one set of experiences against another, so to speak. B) Would you be willing to clarify what was toxic about your experience with SV startups as you described? C) Realistically, without denying the problems which probably do exist with "intersectionaly identity politics", etc, it seem…

The answer is and always has been to judge people by the output of their work and nothing else. As soon as you bring identity politics into to equation, you’ve lost because many people will (rightly) take attacks on white people and men as racist and sexist respectively.

i guess i feel like letting one great programmer drive away 25 good programmers isn't actually a very savvy move

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#179

Post by QAPereo » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:46 AM UTC

pmarreck wrote: post #160

QAPereo wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You turned off flags, but now you’re doing something else yourself. You’re being honest, but not really telling the whole story. Your thumb is very much on the scale however, where existing community sentiment doesn’t do the job. Edit: I didn’t intend to be cryptic or confuse you. I mean just that proclaiming you’ve put one of many tools on the shelf for this thread in no way implies what you tried to imply.

Do you have the evidence to cash the checks your mouth is writing? Until you do, you're also making a fallacious appeal to conspiracy: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

why would I need evidence? Dang isn’t contesting the point, just the terminology.

dang 1 hour ago [-]

Apart from the cloak-and-dagger tone, this either says something obvious—that HN is moderated—or says nothing.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#180

Post by wcarron » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:46 AM UTC

tlb wrote: post #133

wcarron wrote: post #111

I think this was well written. There were a few instances where, upon first reading it, I objected. But rereading it, I thought the language used was chosen well. I have one main gripe, though: The scope limitation to tech. > "Toxic tech cultures are those that demean and devalue you as holistic, multifaceted human beings. Toxic tech cultures are those that prioritize profits and growth over human and societal well b…

The problem isn't tech-specific at all. But an article trying to cover all workplaces from medicine to trucking would be vague and boring. The authors are doing what good authors should: writing what they know, which is the tech world.

I understand that but find it a bit facetious, is all. I would've appreciated a strikethrough on the "tech" in those sentences. Am I asking too much? Perhaps. All in all I found it a good read.