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Getting free of toxic tech culture

blog.valerieaurora.org

141–150 of 420 posts

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#141
> Early on, Valerie realized that she unconsciously thought of literally every single job other than software engineer as “for people who weren’t good enough to be a software engineer” – and that she thought this because other software engineers had been telling her that for her entire career.

This spoke to me for two reasons.

1) Plenty of professions are like this. Lawyers, consultants, doctors, bankers, stock brokers etc. Everyone thinks that their profession is the 'best' one.

2) As someone in tech, but not a Software Developer, the number of times I've gone into technical conferences (yes, even the 'inclusive' ones) and got the feeling of being lesser just because I don't write code for a living bothers me. In particular, the stigma associated with being in customer facing roles (particularly sales) is strong.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#142
post #44

I predict people will claim "our culture isn't that toxic. Some of those things happen, but they don't bother me much." If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. So don't ask "would this bother me?" Ask "would it bother someone?" And since you can't predict this from inside your head, you have to rely on firsthand acc…

>If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. I used to think like this. After years and years of refining my own behavior, a non-work, non-"tech" friend let it slip that my fiends though I had turned into a non-confrontational, lawyer-sounding, people-pleaser. He wasn't wrong, I had gotten in the habit of always walking…

You've confused "nice" with "kind". Nice is about social performance. That includes things like being a conflict-avoiding people-pleaser. Docility, as you put it. Being kind, on the other hand, involves having empathy and working to help others.

The two are somewhat correlated; kind people are often nice. But it's easy enough to be nice without being kind at all, and sometimes being kind requires being visibly not nice. As an example, if you see a coworker being abused, confronting the abuser is a kind thing to do, but you probably can't be nice doing it.

As someone who has worked through a lot of social anxiety, I definitely encourage you to throw off the yoke of your fears about not being nice enough. But that doesn't entitle you to be unkind.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#143
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should it not be to judge people by the output of their work relative to their working conditions? No we shouldn’t look at that. I only care how you can produce in the role you occupy. To clarify by “output” I mean work output, not public display output.

> No we shouldn’t look at that. I only care how you can produce in the role you occupy. Aren't you agreeing then? After all, you are looking at output given the role they occupy right?

I think you’re right actually.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. I used to think like this. After years and years of refining my own behavior, a non-work, non-"tech" friend let it slip that my fiends though I had turned into a non-confrontational, lawyer-sounding, people-pleaser. He wasn't wrong, I had gotten in the habit of always walking…

As a consultant whose client portfolio used to include F500's in health, insurance, and NY finance, and whose portfolio now includes nothing but startups, and having had the pleasure of whiling away many languorous afternoons in the cube farms of those companies, I find it extraordinarily hard to believe that the average startup tech employee is "walking on eggshells" and being performatively docile compared to the d…

How could tech people be more in touch with that, other than by consulting?

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#145
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is and always has been to judge people by the output of their work and nothing else. As soon as you bring identity politics into to equation, you’ve lost because many people will (rightly) take attacks on white people and men as racist and sexist respectively.

> The answer is and always has been to judge people by the output of their work and nothing else. Should it not be to judge people by the output of their work relative to their working conditions? I'm much more interested in hiring someone who operated 5 servers in a culture of manual configuration over ssh by introducing automation than someone who operated 500 servers by following existing procedures and using Ansi…

> Should it not be to judge people by the output of their work relative to their working conditions?

If you keep firing people for poor performance who are not performing because of poor working conditions, then eventually you won't be able to retain anyone and the problem takes care of itself.

Meanwhile those folks have likely moved onto better jobs.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#146
Hi, Dang. You've been banning me for years. I feel like we have a pretty solid relationship.

You see, my resume is so solid that it gets me into any tech company I want for at least an interview or a tour. I make it a point to get onto their corporate inter/intranet and make a HackerNews account and post a valid contrarian position that you're guaranteed to always find a way to distort as a violation of guidelines. I repeat the process until your systems automatically ban/shadowban the entire IP/network from creating new accounts. And when I'm not doing this, the people I've trained to do this are out there doing the same. There's a whole lot of people who really don't like the colonial intentions of HackerNews moderation and censorship.

You don't even know how many opinions of potentially "correct people" you've preemptively stifled because of my efforts. :D

I've been doing this for years. The more overtly activist Silicon Valley gets, the more effective I become at disguising myself as a socialist, the more network access I get to the "correct people" with "correct opinions", the more networks your system automatically prevents from creating new accounts.

Seems petty? Perhaps I could be more efficient? Why am I even doing this? I'm sure you could conjure up a myriad of reasons that make sense to you, so there's no need to give you anything more beyond that. You're a smart guy, you'll invent something. In fact, I'm relying on that amazing capacity to defer to that self-healing moral plasticity you bathe your ego in.

You'll never see how you are part of the toxic tech culture. I have absolutely no interest in ever making you see this or changing your mind. The only interest I have is exploiting your moral plasticity.

Thanks for building and maintaining those censorship tools over the years. I can't wait to hijack the psychology behind these tools and steer it against the people you claim you're protecting. And I'm truly looking forward to how your moral plasticity justifies it.

Don't forget to leak the IP address, psychographic signatures, and behavioral profile of this account to your "secret" network of resistance collaborators. My honeypots are waiting to map your support system. <3

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, from Damore’s Google lawsuit: https://twitter.com/mjaeckel/status/950446329603461121

Ah, James Damore, the guy who thought he knew stuff. Seems like that is the worst possible example. It's like, self-defeating. It's like, yes, lets pick the guy who yet again wants to rationalize institutionalized sexism with bad science and thought it would be OK to tell his _coworkers_ why some of them are, scientifically, inferior to him. And expect for nobody to take offense to this and that he would not get fire…

Can you identify in his memo where he claimed that, "his _coworkers_... are scientifically, inferior to him."

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#148
post #44

I predict people will claim "our culture isn't that toxic. Some of those things happen, but they don't bother me much." If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. So don't ask "would this bother me?" Ask "would it bother someone?" And since you can't predict this from inside your head, you have to rely on firsthand acc…

If I actually abstained from all things that “would bother someone” I would never even be able to leave the house. No matter what you do, I guarantee that there is someone, somewhere, who will be gravely offended by it. This doesn’t even include the people who are out there actively looking for things to take offense to. Trying to please everyone is not a winnable game.

Yeah, the assumption that people leave tech because they are so offended by a behavior doesn't sound like a reasonable assumption.

People have jobs because they have to work, not because they would like to do it. If they leave the industry, it's because they don't find jobs in the industry worthy enough to endure. I'm sure more would stay for better rewards.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#149
I'm wondering how much of this is endemic to ANY male-dominated profession, if you factor in that "tech industry people" are probably disproportionately likely to blog about their experiences.

I think biology makes it very difficult to see everyone as essentially human-fungible and not as (even a little bit) their gender. It is extremely difficult to stay genderblind (dear non-cisgender people: I'm really sorry. It seems like a very hard path.) So I think you're going to get in-group and out-group type phenomenons across professions with asymmetric gender membership, regardless. The problem of course is when those become oppressive.

I don't know what the easy way out of this problem is. Sensitivity training? Simply trying to have more friends of both genders so you can get more perspective and therefore have more empathy and less... toxicity?

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#150
Valerie's note about giving people unpaid labor only to see them pitch a fit when you eventually stop really strikes home.

I continued building some biological image analysis software on a part-time basis after leaving grad school because I found it interesting, thought the science was important, and enjoyed the feeling of contributing in some small way to science. I stopped because a tenured professor got really aggressive and extraordinarily rude about his needs not being addressed in what he considered a timely manner -- to an unpaid contributor who now had a full time job. There's nothing like being yelled at for daring to take a vacation by someone who isn't paying you.

I've also virtually stopped contributing to open source for similar reasons. It only takes a couple demanding lazy assholes helping themselves into your inbox to poison any interest I have in sharing my work.

Our industry is really willing to actively exploit people. See eg the difference in financial returns to founders vs employees, even (particularly!) when the startup doesn't succeed. If you have an enormous bias against non-tech jobs, and all your friends actively reinforce that, you really need new friends.

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