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Getting free of toxic tech culture

blog.valerieaurora.org

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Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#121

Post by tptacek »

wcarron wrote: post #111

I think this was well written. There were a few instances where, upon first reading it, I objected. But rereading it, I thought the language used was chosen well. I have one main gripe, though: The scope limitation to tech. > "Toxic tech cultures are those that demean and devalue you as holistic, multifaceted human beings. Toxic tech cultures are those that prioritize profits and growth over human and societal well b…

In fact, it very probably is a tech-specific problem. Among the STEM fields, CS is almost uniquely imbalanced. STEM fields in general range from ~30-55% women, and those fields include things like Mathematics --- anyone who has gone to an academic cryptography workshop has probably noticed how many more women there are in the room --- which are strong proxies for CS ability. And, of course, among the professions in general, the difference is even more stark; compared to law, we're stuck in the 1960's.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#122

Post by GoodLuckDang »

Hi, Dang. You've been banning me for years. I feel like we have a pretty solid relationship together.

You see, my resume is so solid that it gets me into any tech company I want for at least an interview or a tour. I make it a point to get onto their corporate inter/intranet and make a HackerNews account and post a valid contrarian position that you're guarenteed to always find a way to distort as a violation of guidelines. I repeat the process until your systems automatically ban/shadowban the entire IP/network from creating new accounts. And when I'm not doing this, the people I've trained to do this are out there doing the same.

You don't even know how many opinions of potentially "correct people" you've preemptively stifled because of my efforts. :D

I've been doing this for years. The more overtly activist Silicon Valley gets, the more effective I become at disguising myself as a socialist, the more network access I get to the "correct people" with "correct opinions", the more networks your system automatically prevents from creating new accounts.

Seems petty? Perhaps I could be more efficient? Why am I even doing this? I'm sure you could conjure up a myriad of reasons that make sense to you, so there's no need to give you anything more beyond that. You're a smart guy, you'll invent something. In fact, I'm relying on that self-healing moral plasticity.

You'll never see how you are part of the toxic tech culture. I have absolutely no interest in ever making you see this or changing your mind. The only interest I have is exploiting your moral plasticity.

Thanks for building and maintaining those censorship tools over the years. I can't wait to steer them against the people you claim you're protecting. And I really can't wait for your moral plasticity to justify the hijacking.

Don't forget to leak the IP to your "secret" network of resistance collaborators. My honeypots are waiting. <3

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#123

Post by finnthehuman »

tlb wrote: post #44

I predict people will claim "our culture isn't that toxic. Some of those things happen, but they don't bother me much." If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. So don't ask "would this bother me?" Ask "would it bother someone?" And since you can't predict this from inside your head, you have to rely on firsthand acc…

>If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out.

I used to think like this. After years and years of refining my own behavior, a non-work, non-"tech" friend let it slip that my fiends though I had turned into a non-confrontational, lawyer-sounding, people-pleaser. He wasn't wrong, I had gotten in the habit of always walking on eggshells, navigating every conversation like a minefield and letting myself be treated like a doormat. I did. After all, if I hadn't, I'd be one of those "bros" that only people who have never met a bro say are filling up the engineering departments.

The very next day I got chided about not being empathetic enough or whatever the buzzword was at the time. Maybe I could have kept up the facade if I was simply guilty by association. But it was specifically my behavior that was "toxic." That was it. And I'm out. I'm done.

The never-docile-enough nature of "tech" is what's toxic. I hadn't been able to feel comfortable in my own skin for years out of fear of being off-putting to anyone else. The people who's behavior is worth changing aren't listening anyway, so I'm done letting it be my fault, and I'm never over-correcting to make up for it again.

edit: Want to complain about something in "tech"? Why don't you (not you, specifically, parent poster) start with the ethics of your employer's products/practices.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#124

Post by sidlls »

ikeyany wrote: post #72
sidlls wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That one group has it worse does not invalidate the lived experience of another group.

He said his whiteness hurt his employability.

That was one reason he gave. I agree it's a poor one: being white in this country does not hurt employability in general, or in the tech industry.

However being over 40, having a family, and having experience certainly all can be detrimental.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#125

Post by JKCalhoun »

smsm42 wrote: post #12
Karrot_Kream wrote: post #3

> The refrain of how a startup CEO is going to save humanity is so common that it’s actually uncommon for a CEO to not use saviour language when describing their startup. Cult leaders do the same thing: they create a unique philosophy, imbued with some sort of special message that they alone can see or hear, convince people that only they have the answers for what ails humanity, and use that influence to control the…

I've been in SV for a decade now and I am not observing anything cult-like. I haven't worked for companies like Google or Facebook or any other giant behemoths, so no idea how things are there, but in other places it's pretty far from a cult where I am. Of course, marketing sometimes goes a bit over the board, and each release of version 8.4 is the best thing that happened to humanity since v8.3 was released and befo…

> I've been in SV for a decade now and I am not observing anything cult-like.

Over two decades, and the cult-like trappings are reinforced by the media to be sure. Maybe even originate there.

You're focusing on one small part of the article though. How do you feel about suggestions that you stay healthy, have friends that are not wrapped up in tech, have a life outside of The Company, etc.?

I think there was a lot to agree with.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#126

Post by adamsea »

malvosenior wrote: post #102
majormajor wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate on the form of the attacks on white people and men you're seeing in SV companies? I'm both white, male, and at an SV company, and haven't seen them in my experience. From a managerial perspective I'd love to hire more people from underrepresented groups because it would mean a bigger pool to hire from, so I'm all for recruiting efforts, outreach/education programs, etc, but at the end of the day t…

Sure, from Damore’s Google lawsuit: https://twitter.com/mjaeckel/status/950446329603461121

Ah, James Damore, the guy who thought he knew stuff.

Seems like that is the worst possible example. It's like, self-defeating. It's like, yes, lets pick the guy who yet again wants to rationalize institutionalized sexism with bad science and thought it would be OK to tell his _coworkers_ why some of them are, scientifically, inferior to him. And expect for nobody to take offense to this and that he would not get fired for it.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#127

Post by Firebrand »

finnthehuman wrote: post #123
tlb wrote: post #44

I predict people will claim "our culture isn't that toxic. Some of those things happen, but they don't bother me much." If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. So don't ask "would this bother me?" Ask "would it bother someone?" And since you can't predict this from inside your head, you have to rely on firsthand acc…

>If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. I used to think like this. After years and years of refining my own behavior, a non-work, non-"tech" friend let it slip that my fiends though I had turned into a non-confrontational, lawyer-sounding, people-pleaser. He wasn't wrong, I had gotten in the habit of always walking…

Just don’t write any manifestos to your co-workers.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#128

Post by tptacek »

finnthehuman wrote: post #123
tlb wrote: post #44

I predict people will claim "our culture isn't that toxic. Some of those things happen, but they don't bother me much." If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. So don't ask "would this bother me?" Ask "would it bother someone?" And since you can't predict this from inside your head, you have to rely on firsthand acc…

>If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. I used to think like this. After years and years of refining my own behavior, a non-work, non-"tech" friend let it slip that my fiends though I had turned into a non-confrontational, lawyer-sounding, people-pleaser. He wasn't wrong, I had gotten in the habit of always walking…

As a consultant whose client portfolio used to include F500's in health, insurance, and NY finance, and whose portfolio now includes nothing but startups, and having had the pleasure of whiling away many languorous afternoons in the cube farms of those companies, I find it extraordinarily hard to believe that the average startup tech employee is "walking on eggshells" and being performatively docile compared to the day-1 baseline expectations of, to a first approximation, every non-tech company with more than 1,000 employees in the US.

The idea that tech employees are docile compared to the accounts receivable group at a major US insurance company seems pretty hard to support with evidence.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#129

Post by tlb »

drdaeman wrote: post #83
tlb wrote: post #44

I predict people will claim "our culture isn't that toxic. Some of those things happen, but they don't bother me much." If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. So don't ask "would this bother me?" Ask "would it bother someone?" And since you can't predict this from inside your head, you have to rely on firsthand acc…

> If any non-zero subset of reasonable people Isn't the problem here that there is really no global (or even industry-wide) consensus on what's reasonable and what's not? What feels perfectly reasonable to one may look absolutely and intolerably insane to someone else. And vice versa.

This is an empirical science. Any current consensus rules about what's acceptable derive ultimately from listening to people who are bothered by things. For example, in the 60s women started to object in large numbers to being wolf-whistled at when they walked past. Gradually, that became unacceptable in most workplaces. Many more things have become unacceptable since, and many more will in the future.

So there's no fixed rule, just a dialectic where people who are offended by things speak up, and people who run organizations listen and ban things that offend the most people. The process is always frustratingly slow, but it seems to be mostly moving in the right direction.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#130

Post by dralley »

tptacek wrote: post #121
wcarron wrote: post #111

I think this was well written. There were a few instances where, upon first reading it, I objected. But rereading it, I thought the language used was chosen well. I have one main gripe, though: The scope limitation to tech. > "Toxic tech cultures are those that demean and devalue you as holistic, multifaceted human beings. Toxic tech cultures are those that prioritize profits and growth over human and societal well b…

In fact, it very probably is a tech-specific problem. Among the STEM fields, CS is almost uniquely imbalanced. STEM fields in general range from ~30-55% women, and those fields include things like Mathematics --- anyone who has gone to an academic cryptography workshop has probably noticed how many more women there are in the room --- which are strong proxies for CS ability. And, of course, among the professions in g…

The irony is that there were probably significantly more female computer scientists and programmers in the 1960s than there are now. The industry has regressed severely from the early days.
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