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Getting free of toxic tech culture

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Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#71

Post by j4ship »

tlb wrote: post #44

I predict people will claim "our culture isn't that toxic. Some of those things happen, but they don't bother me much." If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. So don't ask "would this bother me?" Ask "would it bother someone?" And since you can't predict this from inside your head, you have to rely on firsthand acc…

I disagree. I am not responsible for others feelings. There should be clear rules of conduct at any job and a clear process of enforcement. This make the situation fair and certain.

One easy rule is that if someone says "Only talk to me about work." then the other person has to respect it. No forcing of social acceptance , no shaming the other to believe what you believe, just focus on what you were hired for. This is a standard taught to many managers to keep the company out of harassment issues , its very robotic unemotional but its clear and will allow different groups to work together as long as this rule is enforced.

Basically we should not have to worry about a toxic culture because you should not be forced into one when you work. You should just be able to work and separate yourself from your task in any emotional way.

[California dev, 8 years, have held manager position]

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#72

Post by ikeyany »

sidlls wrote: post #50
ikeyany wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you honestly think you'd even get to where you are if you were, say, black? Do you think you'd want to be a part of such a hostile crowd who assumes less of your ability and that none of your credentials are deserved due to handouts?

That one group has it worse does not invalidate the lived experience of another group.

He said his whiteness hurt his employability.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#73

Post by smsm42 »

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #51
smsm42 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been in SV for a decade now and I am not observing anything cult-like. I haven't worked for companies like Google or Facebook or any other giant behemoths, so no idea how things are there, but in other places it's pretty far from a cult where I am. Of course, marketing sometimes goes a bit over the board, and each release of version 8.4 is the best thing that happened to humanity since v8.3 was released and befo…

> Of course, marketing sometimes goes a bit over the board, and each release of version 8.4 is the best thing that happened to humanity since v8.3 was released and before it's time to release v8.5. But that's kind of expected, nobody I know takes it as a literal truth. > And of course (almost) each startup CEO thinks his (or her) startup is going to change the world, or at least some part of it. That's how you should…

That's the whole point, let me refine it further: the bad aspects that mentioned in the article are not unique to tech: the world is full of overboard marketing, I see ads promising scantly-clad women flocking to me if I drink sugared water of $BRAND and muscular attractive men inviting me to the world of opportunities if I use shampoo $BRAND2 - btw, if you think tech world is sexist and pigeonholing try watching TV ads... And the other aspects are not bad but just a normal imperfect human behavior. "Toxic" is a very bad term because it's completely unclear what it means besides "it's something bad". So is the message of the article "bad things in tech were bad and that's why I left"? OK, it's nice to know, not exactly anything new but everybody has the right for one's own biography. Is there any insight there beyond that? One that pertains specifically to tech world?

> Why does the small chain of bike repair shops in my area, also taking the stress and high risk of starting their own business, not exhort about how their bike repair shop will change the world of bikes forever?

Maybe if they did, they'd be a large national chain of bike repair shops now? ;) Maybe not, who knows. The point is there's nothing inherently bad in wanting to change the world of bikes forever. And one day somebody might just do that.

> Moreover, there's an argument to be made that a field that oft labels itself as "meritocratic" relies on these hyperbolic forms of marketing and mission statements to do business, rather than a more traditional, "stodgy" business.

You can't really rely on mission statements and marketing to do business. At least not in any long term. And SV companies surely provide ample evidence that marketing is not the only thing they do. Surely, some companies are just hype, and those get up, stay up for a short while, and go down to the ash heap of history, never to be spoken about again (would anybody know what Juicero was in 5 years? maybe some ubergeeks would). But claiming it's a defining property of significant part of SV companies to be overblown marketing only is just false.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#74

Post by ikeyany »

oceanghost wrote: post #43
ikeyany wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you honestly think you'd even get to where you are if you were, say, black? Do you think you'd want to be a part of such a hostile crowd who assumes less of your ability and that none of your credentials are deserved due to handouts?

Opinions like yours always baffle me. Since a black person may or may not have had it worse? Should I be grateful? Contrite? Apologetic?

How about not saying things like whiteness holding back your career?

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#75

Post by malvosenior »

adamsea wrote: post #63
leroy_masochist wrote: post #35

The tips in here on topics like building relationships outside work, being financially prudent and learning how to say no are all good nuggets of advice. With that said, I thought that the article's title was kind of ironic because in my opinion, the intersectional identity politics espoused by the authors is itself one of the most toxic aspects of contemporary tech culture. It's the part of working at a mature ventu…

A) With respect, your experience and the author's experience may vary, for a variety of reasons, so I'm not sure it makes sense to pit one set of experiences against another, so to speak. B) Would you be willing to clarify what was toxic about your experience with SV startups as you described? C) Realistically, without denying the problems which probably do exist with "intersectionaly identity politics", etc, it seem…

The answer is and always has been to judge people by the output of their work and nothing else. As soon as you bring identity politics into to equation, you’ve lost because many people will (rightly) take attacks on white people and men as racist and sexist respectively.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#76

Post by dang »

QAPereo wrote: post #60
dang wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bit of an awkward moment for a searing indictment, as we'd just turned off flags on the OP. With suppression like that, who needs promotion? It's a common misconception, but Hacker News really isn't identified with or immersed in Silicon Valley. Those of us moderating it are largely on the margins of SV and always have been, and the community by no means has its center of gravity there. It's globally distributed and…

You turned off flags, but now you’re doing something else yourself. You’re being honest, but not really telling the whole story. Your thumb is very much on the scale however, where existing community sentiment doesn’t do the job. Edit: I didn’t intend to be cryptic or confuse you. I mean just that proclaiming you’ve put one of many tools on the shelf for this thread in no way implies what you tried to imply.

Apart from the cloak-and-dagger tone, this either says something obvious—that HN is moderated—or says nothing.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#77

Post by adamsea »

reitanqild wrote: post #59
geofft wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who firmly believes in "that male privilege thing," people who tell you that you should feel bad about it are wrong. There's nothing wrong with privilege. It's a lot like privilege in the operating systems sense. sudo isn't a bad program because it has root privileges. The kernel doesn't need to apologize for running in a privileged CPU mode. But sudo and the kernel both have abilities that regular userspa…

So, maybe male privilege exist, but so do female privilege: In my childhood girls were never beaten. Boys were by each other. During my studies girls got extra study points for higher education - just for being girls. IIRC this held true even for studies who were mostly girls anyway, like nurse and chemistry. (This has been fixed to some degree now I think so boys will now get extra study points if they apply for nur…

> In my childhood girls were never beaten. Boys were by each other.

No, they were just sexually harassed. To be fair, plenty of boys get sexually harassed to.

It's all gonna come out in the wash, man. Relative to all the shit (sexual harassment, rape, being denied the vote until 1919, getting their pussies grabbed by the President, etc) women have to put up with, a bias towards hiring them in certain situations is not that big a deal. IMHO, making change for all of the above issues would make our society such a better place, for women and men, and matters more than this. So you're right, it's not 50/50, however I'm not sure that making a list of all the things that are not 50/50 is really a game that one wants to play.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#78

Post by cutcss »

tlb wrote: post #44

I predict people will claim "our culture isn't that toxic. Some of those things happen, but they don't bother me much." If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. So don't ask "would this bother me?" Ask "would it bother someone?" And since you can't predict this from inside your head, you have to rely on firsthand acc…

Not really, as an example bothering people that believe earth is flat by saying "it is not" is a positive in my book; in other words, bothering ideas that need to be bothered.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#79

Post by tlb »

rifung wrote: post #17
oceanghost wrote: post #8

I've written software for Intel, Nintendo, Samsung, LG, DirecTV, Applied Materials, Microsoft, and Apple to name a few. My last project was the basis for an entire business line at a 500m/yr company. I am unemployable because I'm a white male whose in his 40s, has a family, and because somehow, in this industry experience is a bad thing. It amazes me how intolerant of age and differing opinion tech culture is.

> I am unemployable because I'm a white male whose in his 40s, has a family, and because somehow, in this industry experience is a bad thing. What indications do you have that those are the reasons you are unemployable? I have many well respected, senior coworkers who fit this description so at least personally I don't understand why people would be hesitant to hire you based on that description alone..

I can attest that many tech companies are hostile to older people. I'm a white male in my 40s, and I've felt it myself and heard many more accounts. The existence of counterexamples doesn't falsify the claim.

The temptation to blame victims is strong. I think it comes from wanting to reassure oneself that "it can't happen to me." So you have to actively silence that voice in your head, and assume that victims are actually victims unless there's real evidence to the contrary.

As advice for senior people, I'd suggest: don't apply for junior jobs. Apply to lead large teams, or start your own company. It can be more stressful than coding, but that's the way the industry is structured.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#80

Post by trhway »

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #51
smsm42 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been in SV for a decade now and I am not observing anything cult-like. I haven't worked for companies like Google or Facebook or any other giant behemoths, so no idea how things are there, but in other places it's pretty far from a cult where I am. Of course, marketing sometimes goes a bit over the board, and each release of version 8.4 is the best thing that happened to humanity since v8.3 was released and befo…

> Of course, marketing sometimes goes a bit over the board, and each release of version 8.4 is the best thing that happened to humanity since v8.3 was released and before it's time to release v8.5. But that's kind of expected, nobody I know takes it as a literal truth. > And of course (almost) each startup CEO thinks his (or her) startup is going to change the world, or at least some part of it. That's how you should…

> Why does the small chain of bike repair shops in my area, also taking the stress and high risk of starting their own business, not exhort about how their bike repair shop will change the world of bikes forever?

may be not having such a vision is a reason why they aren't going to change the word of bikes forever. In the beginning was the Word ...

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