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Getting free of toxic tech culture

blog.valerieaurora.org

61–70 of 420 posts

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#61
post #38
post #9

As usual, the actual numbers don't back up the narrative. For example, significantly more men in the study left due to unfairness than women do: 40% vs. 31%. So either women are treated more fairly or these numbers don't mean anything, yet you would never know it from the text, which is all about the horrible things that happen to women. Hmmm...

An important point here - every time I read "X% of class A had this happening to them" I automatically ask "what's the baseline rate? If you weren't in class A, would it happen to you more often or less often?" If I don't find this comparison - and usually I don't - then the number of X% is useless for the purpose of deciding whether class A is an outlier or not. Unfortunately, as I said, very small number of people…

Yes. And the fact that they leave out the baselines pretty much everywhere is highly suspicious.

The rest of the study provides even less information, just tendentious excerpts. What does "30% of underrepresented women of color were passed over for promotion" even mean??

The ACM did a study a while back that contradicted virtually all of the stereotypes[1].

"Men and women in our survey both generally reported a similar level of experience with role models. Women, even in a predominately male work environment did not report a significant difference from men in the influence role models had on their careers in IT. This surprising finding does not support previous assumptions that the lack of females in IT means a lack of role models for women, which was assumed to be a disadvantage for women"

"Similarly, men and women in the survey reported comparable levels of learning and comfort around the social aspects of the profession despite stereotypes that suggest women are drawn more to social interaction [7]. However, our surveyed male IT professionals also reported stronger socialization with regard to the technical aspects of the profession, including familiarity with its language and confidence concerning their own skills "

"Our findings uncovered only one significant gender difference across a variety of work-related experiences. Female and male IT professionals alike reported similar levels of experience regarding the work-family conflict, feelings of burnout, perceptions of work load, perceptions of fair treatment in job scheduling, assignment of job responsibilities, pay and other rewards, and perceptions of supervisor support related to family issues. They differed in regard to their perceptions of supervisor support related to their careers. This finding indicates that women perceive greater support in meeting career goals, recognizing opportunities, and improving their job performance."

Yes, women reported greater support in this ACM survey.

"We found no significant gender differences for these measures of attitude. Male and female IT professionals in the study reported similar levels of satisfaction with their IT careers. They also reported similar (strong) levels of professional identification with the profession. Finally, and perhaps most important to the question at hand, we found no significant gender differences in intention to leave the profession"

Etc.

There was also a huge study done on why women leave engineering[2].

Top reasons (in order):

1. Wanted more time with family

2. Lost interest

3. No advancement

4. Didn't like daily tasks

5. Didn't like culture

6. Didn't like boss

7. Poor working conditions

8. Conflict with family

9. Too many hours

10. Low salary

11. Too much travel

12. Didn't like co-workers

13. Started own business

14. Couldn't find position

15. Too difficult

Oh...and "almost half the women who left the engineering field over five years ago reported working at least 40 hours per week in a current non-engineering position [..] More than half the women in this group reported being in an executive management position, 15% were in a managerial position and 30% reported being individual contributors". So they left "engineering" for "management". The humanity!

And of course when this study was reported, it was "It's the [sexist] culture!!". Sigh. Culture comes in at number 5 and is culture in general.

[1] https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2008/2/5453-women-and-men-in-...

[2] https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/NSF_Stemming%20the%20Tid...

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#62
post #21

>What is toxic tech culture? Toxic tech cultures are those that demean and devalue you as holistic, multifaceted human beings. Toxic tech cultures are those that prioritize profits and growth over human and societal well being. Toxic tech cultures are those that treat you as replaceable cogs within a system of constant churn and burnout. has there been any factory floor, farm, private or government office where thing…

> "prioritize profits and growth over human and societal well being" As in: what every corporation is, by law, required to do. If it doesn't, lawsuits follow.

If you're talking about fiduciary duty, one, that only applies to public companies, and two, no, that's not what it means. (For instance, the Supreme Court has recently stated, "Modern corporate law does not require for-profit corporations to pursue profit at the expense of everything else, and many do not.")

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#63

The tips in here on topics like building relationships outside work, being financially prudent and learning how to say no are all good nuggets of advice. With that said, I thought that the article's title was kind of ironic because in my opinion, the intersectional identity politics espoused by the authors is itself one of the most toxic aspects of contemporary tech culture. It's the part of working at a mature ventu…

A) With respect, your experience and the author's experience may vary, for a variety of reasons, so I'm not sure it makes sense to pit one set of experiences against another, so to speak.

B) Would you be willing to clarify what was toxic about your experience with SV startups as you described?

C) Realistically, without denying the problems which probably do exist with "intersectionaly identity politics", etc, it seems pretty clear (as in there are studies, etc) that sexual harassment is one of the most toxic aspects, not only of tech, but of contemporary business and American life. Discrimination based on the color of one's skin is up there as well. So it does seem a bit disingenuous to point out the flaws in ways in which people are trying to ameliorate these problems without acknowledging the problems themselves, and/or to imply that said flaws are more pervasive than the damaging behaviors which they are a response to.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#64

> The refrain of how a startup CEO is going to save humanity is so common that it’s actually uncommon for a CEO to not use saviour language when describing their startup. Cult leaders do the same thing: they create a unique philosophy, imbued with some sort of special message that they alone can see or hear, convince people that only they have the answers for what ails humanity, and use that influence to control the…

I wonder if any managers can answer this, how do, or do you deal with employees that act within their rights and don't drink the cool-aid? There have been so many times where I have worked beyond the call of duty and on reflection I don't know why I did it - there is a low chance of getting a bonus or raise compared to spending the time actually getting paid to do something and you are in your right to say no (to som…

It really, really depends on the company and a whole host of other factors.

If you pushed a bug to prod, knocked out all of Australia, then went home and aren't answering your phone because it's after hours and you're not on call, I'm not going to be happy with you. (Not that we would normally push to prod right before going home, but to illustrate the point...)

If you work 9-5, M-F, never cause any fires, and hit your milestones, then I'm perfectly satisfied with that.

That's just me, though; I intentionally maintain a relatively balanced workplace. Other companies and managers will have different styles. That being said, don't underestimate the importance of likeability [0]; you'll be fighting against human nature and unconscious biases if you do. How that manifests (general friendliness, going to after-hours social events, helping others with tough tasks, etc) will vary by person and team.

[0]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-likability-matters-more-at-...

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#65
post #37

I've written software for Intel, Nintendo, Samsung, LG, DirecTV, Applied Materials, Microsoft, and Apple to name a few. My last project was the basis for an entire business line at a 500m/yr company. I am unemployable because I'm a white male whose in his 40s, has a family, and because somehow, in this industry experience is a bad thing. It amazes me how intolerant of age and differing opinion tech culture is.

I do find it interesting that the authors are ok with saying “Susan grew up on the Internet,” which is another variation on digital/internet natives, and clearly ageist.

Ha, I couldn't put my finger on why that phrase bothered me but you nailed it.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#66
post #21

>What is toxic tech culture? Toxic tech cultures are those that demean and devalue you as holistic, multifaceted human beings. Toxic tech cultures are those that prioritize profits and growth over human and societal well being. Toxic tech cultures are those that treat you as replaceable cogs within a system of constant churn and burnout. has there been any factory floor, farm, private or government office where thing…

> "prioritize profits and growth over human and societal well being" As in: what every corporation is, by law, required to do. If it doesn't, lawsuits follow.

No, they are not. This myth needs to die already.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#67
post #9

As usual, the actual numbers don't back up the narrative. For example, significantly more men in the study left due to unfairness than women do: 40% vs. 31%. So either women are treated more fairly or these numbers don't mean anything, yet you would never know it from the text, which is all about the horrible things that happen to women. Hmmm...

The willingness to slog though abusive working conditions is one of the most highly-selected-for trait in tech. Mature people are, on average, are less willing to do this than young people of the customarily military age range.

Please don't post unsubstantive comments or flamebait here. What you say isn't remotely plausible, since if it were true, software companies would be filled with non-programmers. Edit: I mean instead of programmers.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#68
post #32
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. It's also been nearly three years since the men-are-hired-more myth was laid to rest: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/1... But you need to bear in mind that facts do not matter . The subjective feelings of protected groups are the primary determinant of which other groups bear "toxicity", which is the secular term for Original Sin.

This report is about the technology/software industry - your link is about tenure-track positions in science departments.

And the studies typically quoted showing a hiring bias against women (like the infamous "lab manager" study) are also typically academia. And actually much less substantial than the Ceci & Williams study.

See

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/rabble-rouser/201707/wh...

and

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/rabble-rouser/201707/ge...

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#69
post #19
post #9

As usual, the actual numbers don't back up the narrative. For example, significantly more men in the study left due to unfairness than women do: 40% vs. 31%. So either women are treated more fairly or these numbers don't mean anything, yet you would never know it from the text, which is all about the horrible things that happen to women. Hmmm...

Right. It's also been nearly three years since the men-are-hired-more myth was laid to rest: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/1... But you need to bear in mind that facts do not matter . The subjective feelings of protected groups are the primary determinant of which other groups bear "toxicity", which is the secular term for Original Sin.

You've crossed over the flamebait line here. Please don't do that, especially not in this thread. From https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html:

Comments should get more civil and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#70

> The refrain of how a startup CEO is going to save humanity is so common that it’s actually uncommon for a CEO to not use saviour language when describing their startup. Cult leaders do the same thing: they create a unique philosophy, imbued with some sort of special message that they alone can see or hear, convince people that only they have the answers for what ails humanity, and use that influence to control the…

Can you describe in what ways SV feels like Animal Farm?

> The Orwellian mismatch between rhetoric and action feels like cult-like propaganda to me.

Can you list out a few of these actions?

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