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Amazon announces candidate cities for HQ2

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Re: Amazon announces candidate cities for HQ2

#611
post #402
post #126

Something about this just makes my stomach sick... A massive corporation is pitting governments against each other for its own gain, often to no benefit of the local population. I'm scared to see the numbers of "incentives" that local politicians try and hand out to Amazon. There's little evidence that the public money used/lost will ever be recouped. One of the worst cases of this happening so far is the Foxconn dea…

It is terrifying how this power is being wielded. Cities try to compete to see who can be more obsequious and subservient to corporate interests in the hope that they win some "victory" -- the company moving to their town -- which in the end does very little for the actual city or the people in it. It is just an impressive line item on the mayor's resume when they try to move up in politics, "I got Amazon!" Seattle h…

Just to make sure it's clear that this is not a universal opinion:

I am a non-Amazon Seattle resident, and I'm thrilled with what the economic growth has done to the area. Some examples:

- Converted an un-safe warehouse district into prime, central real estate and a thriving neighborhood (South Lake Union)

- Grown a progressive, thriving economy that has in turn supported development of mass transit (ST2, ST3 - citywide light rail)

- Pushed the median household income up 13% over the last decade

Seattle ain't perfect, but there is no question in my mind that we'd be worse off without the thriving local tech economy.

Re: Amazon announces candidate cities for HQ2

#612
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They won't do this after getting bids from numerous American cities. To choose a city in Canada would piss off too much of their customer base, including the president of the country, and would have a long term material impact on sales.

Have you seen Trump's tweets about Amazon and Bezos? He's already pissed at them. Frankly if I was in their shoes I would go with Toronto also to have some sort of hedging against the US political climate.

> Frankly if I was in their shoes I would go with Toronto also to have some sort of hedging against the US political climate.

Meh. However you feel about Trump, confidence in the US economy among businesses has been really high since his election, and even higher after the tax bill got passed. Look at what’s happening with Apple and the hundreds of other companies giving out bonuses and increasing spending in the US. Your comment might have made more sense closer to the election when everyone was making those gloom and doom predictions and nobody was sure what might really happen, but I think right now the US is more attractive to businesses than it’s probably been in a very long time.

Re: Amazon announces candidate cities for HQ2

#613
post #286
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why?

Assuming Amazon is going to create an HQ somewhere in America, consider the two situations: 1) Current situation, they will eventually get a very large tax cut from wherever they select. 2) Hypothetical situation: local tax breaks are not allowed, Amazon selects a location and pays the local taxes that it avoided in situation #1.

Is having high taxes an inherently good thing we want to create incentives to encourage? In private industry, governments try to break up cartels because they're thought to be bad for consumers (residents of the cities in this case).

Re: Amazon announces candidate cities for HQ2

#614
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rampant: flourishing or spreading unchecked. I have lived in the south for 33 years (in particular, one of these states mentioned) - if you think that racism is flourishing or spreading unchecked you are misinformed. It exists, but it's dying. Please stop spreading hyperbole like this.

Racism is still alive in the south, though, even if it's not as bad as people from more liberal areas think. However, I can certainly tell you that as a gay man, I do not expect that I will feel comfortable living in any southern state during my lifetime. I lasted 3 years in Raleigh before I had to get out (and that was long before the bathroom bill).

Ever been to Houston?

Re: Amazon announces candidate cities for HQ2

#615
post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I saw Atlanta on the list, I felt that it's over. The rail system is far superior to what exists in Seattle & should support reasonable suburban commutes. Georgia Tech's talent supply makes it interesting, but I get the impression that Amazon hires people with more experience than just straight out of college.

> The rail system is far superior to what exists in Seattle & should support reasonable suburban commutes Atlanta has a relatively poor transit system compared to many other cities on the list. The bus system isn't great and MARTA (trains) is quite limited. I left before the beltline was built out, so maybe things are getting better.

Beltline is taking its time getting completed, but what is done is fantastic!

I ride my bike on it almost everyday and there are tons of new restaurants, apartments, and fun things to do.

Re: Amazon announces candidate cities for HQ2

#616
post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's balanced by the increase in tax base from 50,000 jobs and investment of billions in the local community.

No it's not balanced, that was my whole point. Yes there will be an increase in tax base, but it won't cover the increase in expenses. If it does then it implies that the current businesses are overtaxed.

Not if the average salary and usage taxes per Amazon employee are higher than normal for the city, which seems likely.

Re: Amazon announces candidate cities for HQ2

#617
post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think the city would be better off without Comcast employees there? This is where more subtle analysis makes all the difference. Comcast doesn't seem like it would be a high-end workforce. I doubt they do any R&D there.

While not all of Comcast's R&D is here, they do have quite a few teams in Philly doing R&D (I know people on them)

Yeah but does this actual help the people of Philly? http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=COMCAST&job=&city=PHILADELP...

Re: Amazon announces candidate cities for HQ2

#618
post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While not all of Comcast's R&D is here, they do have quite a few teams in Philly doing R&D (I know people on them)

Yeah but does this actual help the people of Philly? http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=COMCAST&job=&city=PHILADELP...

Not really a good argument to use when the overall topic is Amazon.

http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Amazon+Corporate+Llc&job=&c...

Re: Amazon announces candidate cities for HQ2

#619

Part of me would love to have a big tech / infrastructure company like Amazon in Philly. But I take serious issue with the idea of the city paying millions or billions to bring them here, promising years of tax breaks (a free ride), and the tightening of an already very tight real estate and rental market. I don't think my fellow Philadelphians should have to pay to bring a company here that's just going to hire peop…

Your comment reminds me sports stadiums being built millions spent for rich professional sports teams. I'm not into sports at all it seems unusual to build what to me seems like a church for worshippers of team X. I'm all for being active but professional sports these days seems like they are a religion.

Stadium subsidies have repeatedly been shown to be one of the worst development deals local governments can make. Or get snookered into. While deals tend to vary, with some being less bad than others, local governments almost always lose in the long run: subsidies stadiums don't generate the expected economic gains, and the opportunity cost means subsidy funds can't be spent on infrastructure investments that would have a stronger, more immediate economic benefit. The perceived rational for stadium subsidies tends to focus on two main benefits: construction jobs, and a multiplier effect that's tied to tourism as well as local sports spending. One analysis, for example:

> In our forthcoming Brookings book, Sports, Jobs, and Taxes, we and 15 collaborators examine the local economic development argument from all angles: case studies of the effect of specific facilities, as well as comparisons among cities and even neighborhoods that have and have not sunk hundreds of millions of dollars into sports development. In every case, the conclusions are the same. A new sports facility has an extremely small (perhaps even negative) effect on overall economic activity and employment. No recent facility appears to have earned anything approaching a reasonable return on investment. No recent facility has been self-financing in terms of its impact on net tax revenues. Regardless of whether the unit of analysis is a local neighborhood, a city, or an entire metropolitan area, the economic benefits of sports facilities are de minimus.[0]

Multiple surveys of economists have shown a strong consensus against stadium and professional sports subsidies: one survey indicated that 86 percent agreed "local and state governments in the U.S. should eliminate subsidies to professional sports franchises" while another from 2017 showed "Providing state and local subsidies to build stadiums for professional sports teams is likely to cost the relevant taxpayers more than any local economic benefits that are generated."[1][2] Michael Leeds, a sports economist, put it this way: "If every sports team in Chicago were to suddenly disappear, the impact on the Chicago economy would be a fraction of 1 percent...A baseball team has about the same impact on a community as a midsize department store."[3]

But people love their teams, and the simple threat of moving is often more than enough to push subsidy deals past any roadblocks even when a move is highly unlikely. Plus, they're stuck with an old, empty stadium afterwards: when Rams left St. Louis for LA, the city was still carrying >$100 million in bonds from the old stadium's construction in 1995.[4] Plus another ~$17 million spent on developing a new stadium plan in the two years before the move. No wonder the city tried to sue.

Stadium subsidies are bad deals sold with irrational projections with fans' emotions used to grease the deal the rest of the way. The only thing worse than a city declaring victory with a stadium deal is a city actually winning an Olympic bid.[5] Apologies for the length; I got a bit carried away :).

0. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/sports-jobs-taxes-are-new...

1. https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/page1-econ/2017...

2. https://people.uwec.edu/jamelsem/fte/fte/efl/teacher_stuff/a...

3. https://www.marketplace.org/2015/03/19/business/are-pro-spor...

4. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/rams-los-angeles-st-lou...

5. https://astro.temple.edu/~mleeds/documents/CEP.pdf

Re: Amazon announces candidate cities for HQ2

#620

My money is on one of Nashville, Indianapolis or Columbus with Pittsburgh as a dark horse. Amazon is going to be looking to build a major campus (say 5-10 big buildings) right in the center of town (as they've done here in Seattle) and that's just not feasible in expensive cities like LA, Boston, NYC, Chicago or DC. Denver is too far west, Miami, Atlanta and Raleigh too far southeast. Newark and Philadelphia don't ha…

I don't think Amazon is going to pick Chicago, but there are underdeveloped areas in/near the center of the city in Chicago. There are parts of Chicago that are quite expensive (like West Loop, where McDonalds is moving its campus), but Chicago is really big .

Why not? It ticks all the boxes: tax breaks, good airport, transit, large metropolitan area, good schools, talent pool, etc.
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