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Soon, Cars in Denmark Will Only Be Taxed at 100% (2017)

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Re: Soon, Cars in Denmark Will Only Be Taxed at 100% (2017)

#21

Post by mc32 »

bearcobra wrote: post #16
charlesdm wrote: post #8

Now, I don't live in Denmark, but am I the only one here who wouldn't like (excessive) tax policies like that? A 180% tax (now to be lowered a bit) on a vehicle seems madly excessive. It's like a ban, without actually having the guts to call it a ban. I'm assuming most normal people are unable to afford a car then. I'm not a car nut (don't even really like cars, though I do own one and don't use it often) but wouldn'…

I don't really see a problem with using taxation as a mechanism to encourage behavior while still allowing a market for it. Alcohol has a lot of negative impacts for society, so making it a luxury is probably a net good. I think the arguments around cars are a little more nuanced, but if a country decides it wants to encourage public transit & walkability, that seems like a fine goal.

For one problem it's a regressive tax, unless they carve out means based exceptions that means it puts transit for some rural people out of reach.

Re: Soon, Cars in Denmark Will Only Be Taxed at 100% (2017)

#22

Post by ebbv »

charlesdm wrote: post #8

Now, I don't live in Denmark, but am I the only one here who wouldn't like (excessive) tax policies like that? A 180% tax (now to be lowered a bit) on a vehicle seems madly excessive. It's like a ban, without actually having the guts to call it a ban. I'm assuming most normal people are unable to afford a car then. I'm not a car nut (don't even really like cars, though I do own one and don't use it often) but wouldn'…

I obviously don't know where you live, but it sounds crazy to people in the US because in most of the US public transportation an bicycle infrastructure is not where it needs to be to make them viable for daily life. In places where public transportation is better (like say NYC), car ownership is the exception rather than the rule.

The reality is cars have a massive public cost that we all subsidize via various taxes and paying higher prices for goods already. Keeping up roads, traffic signals, parking structures, etc. is very expensive. Higher taxes on vehicles (and/or gas) helps put the cost directly where it belongs.

Obviously instantly going to 100% tax on vehicles in most of the US would be a complete disaster right now because of the above lack of public transportation, etc. but it's not a crazy idea if you give people alternate means to get around and structure your cities so that 1 hour (or longer) commutes via car are not the norm.

Re: Soon, Cars in Denmark Will Only Be Taxed at 100% (2017)

#23

Post by alkonaut »

charlesdm wrote: post #8

Now, I don't live in Denmark, but am I the only one here who wouldn't like (excessive) tax policies like that? A 180% tax (now to be lowered a bit) on a vehicle seems madly excessive. It's like a ban, without actually having the guts to call it a ban. I'm assuming most normal people are unable to afford a car then. I'm not a car nut (don't even really like cars, though I do own one and don't use it often) but wouldn'…

People drive. A lot. It’s just widely accepted that this is what a car costs.

The main problem I see with a high tax is that people might circumvent it (illegal imports etc).

An interesting effect of these high taxes is that you can very “cheaply” subsidize EVs now. It’s lost revenue so it’s still a cost - but it’s easier to swallow and administer.

Just tax them at 10% instead of 100% and a Tesla Model S is immediately competitive with all the boring ICE vehicles. Look at how Tesla is the most sold car in Norway.

Re: Soon, Cars in Denmark Will Only Be Taxed at 100% (2017)

#24

Post by ceejayoz »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #19
charlesdm wrote: post #8

Now, I don't live in Denmark, but am I the only one here who wouldn't like (excessive) tax policies like that? A 180% tax (now to be lowered a bit) on a vehicle seems madly excessive. It's like a ban, without actually having the guts to call it a ban. I'm assuming most normal people are unable to afford a car then. I'm not a car nut (don't even really like cars, though I do own one and don't use it often) but wouldn'…

Many countries are similarly bad, yet still have cars; Singapore and Hong Kong for example, which are otherwise libertarian paradises. They tend to have excellent public transportation, however. There are also still cars in Denmark (no problem seeing them when I visited Aarhus), just not as many as in the states.

> Singapore and Hong Kong for example, which are otherwise libertarian paradises.

Wait, what?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Singapore

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/10/hong-kongs-bus...

Re: Soon, Cars in Denmark Will Only Be Taxed at 100% (2017)

#25

Post by YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 »

charlesdm wrote: post #8

Now, I don't live in Denmark, but am I the only one here who wouldn't like (excessive) tax policies like that? A 180% tax (now to be lowered a bit) on a vehicle seems madly excessive. It's like a ban, without actually having the guts to call it a ban. I'm assuming most normal people are unable to afford a car then. I'm not a car nut (don't even really like cars, though I do own one and don't use it often) but wouldn'…

It's not really a ban, although it does price out some from the market. Practically anyone who has a steady job could still afford a car (edit: even a new one I mean), although many choose not to, because it's not worth it for them.

Those who buy cars essentially buy cheaper cars for the same prices compared to the neighbouring countries with similar income levels.

Yes, I wouldn't one a tax policy like that, either. Where I live, we still have a car excise tax, although somewhat more reasonable, and I oppose to that too: taxing safety features for instance makes people buy less safe cars on average. In any case, road users pay their fair share in fuel taxes (which are high practically everywhere in Europe), not to mention the recurring car owner's tax. (Some car-opposing people from the U.S. tend not to understand how much taxes car owners pay in Europe, but it really covers all the externalities of providing service for cars, and then some; it's a cash cow for the tax man. Of course, you need to collect taxes somewhere...)

Re: Soon, Cars in Denmark Will Only Be Taxed at 100% (2017)

#26

Post by hrasyid »

ceejayoz wrote: post #24
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many countries are similarly bad, yet still have cars; Singapore and Hong Kong for example, which are otherwise libertarian paradises. They tend to have excellent public transportation, however. There are also still cars in Denmark (no problem seeing them when I visited Aarhus), just not as many as in the states.

> Singapore and Hong Kong for example, which are otherwise libertarian paradises. Wait, what? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Singapore https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/10/hong-kongs-bus...

>> libertarian paradises

Probably he/she meant to type authoritarian paradise ;)

Re: Soon, Cars in Denmark Will Only Be Taxed at 100% (2017)

#27

Post by alkonaut »

pedermoeller wrote: post #12
mortenjorck wrote: post #10

I was quite surprised to click through and read that this is a decrease and not an increase in the tax rate on cars. Which makes me wonder: What about the Danish political climate enabled the original 180% rate to make it into law?

The fact that Denmark does not have a car industry has played an important role.

This is a very big reason. Sweden and Germany have auto industry with very strong (politically) unions, ensuring that laws and taxes are beneficial to national industry. Norway and Denmark are very similar to Sweden in many ways, but only Sweden has auto industry and Norway/Denmark have much higher car prices.

Re: Soon, Cars in Denmark Will Only Be Taxed at 100% (2017)

#28

Post by olivermarks »

alkonaut wrote: post #23
charlesdm wrote: post #8

Now, I don't live in Denmark, but am I the only one here who wouldn't like (excessive) tax policies like that? A 180% tax (now to be lowered a bit) on a vehicle seems madly excessive. It's like a ban, without actually having the guts to call it a ban. I'm assuming most normal people are unable to afford a car then. I'm not a car nut (don't even really like cars, though I do own one and don't use it often) but wouldn'…

People drive. A lot. It’s just widely accepted that this is what a car costs. The main problem I see with a high tax is that people might circumvent it (illegal imports etc). An interesting effect of these high taxes is that you can very “cheaply” subsidize EVs now. It’s lost revenue so it’s still a cost - but it’s easier to swallow and administer. Just tax them at 10% instead of 100% and a Tesla Model S is immediate…

A side note in the article is the collapse of electric vehicle sales in Norway.

'...the current administration had decided to phase out tax breaks on electric cars, citing budget constraints and the desire to level the playing field. That decision was delayed in June amid a dramatic drop in sales of Electrically Chargeable Vehicles (ECVs)'.

ECV sales have relied very heavily on subsidy in most of the western world, it will be interesting to see demand when competing on a level playing field with ICE vehicles

Re: Soon, Cars in Denmark Will Only Be Taxed at 100% (2017)

#29

Post by alkonaut »

ChrisClark wrote: post #5
therealgimli wrote: post #2

As an urban dweller (nyc) who would love to see fewer autos on the road, I view this as a positive development. But I can't help but wonder if there is an automakers lobby in Denmark. If so, why wouldn't they oppose/ shutdown such a measure? I can only imagine the insane backlash a similar ruling would have in the US, in spite of the long term benefits to society from having fewer cars. [edit: should have read the ar…

This is the other way around, they are lowering the tax from 180% to 100%. So I'm sure if there is an automakers lobby, they approve of this.

There are no auto makers in denmark, so likely not much of a lobby (this is Northern Europe, so “lobby” is more likely to mean unions of the manufacturers than lobbyists paid by multinational corporations).

Re: Soon, Cars in Denmark Will Only Be Taxed at 100% (2017)

#30

Post by YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 »

andys627 wrote: post #17
charlesdm wrote: post #8

Now, I don't live in Denmark, but am I the only one here who wouldn't like (excessive) tax policies like that? A 180% tax (now to be lowered a bit) on a vehicle seems madly excessive. It's like a ban, without actually having the guts to call it a ban. I'm assuming most normal people are unable to afford a car then. I'm not a car nut (don't even really like cars, though I do own one and don't use it often) but wouldn'…

They're not excessive - they're more in line with true cost of car dependent society. In the US we shower subsidies on car owners. Some examples: using general fund money to build highways, charging low gas taxes that don't cover cost of maintenance of roads, providing free/underpriced parking in every downtown in the US, undercharging for pollution and other negative externalities of driving, requiring minimum amoun…

>They're not excessive - they're more in line with true cost of car dependent society.

How did you come by that result? Assuming it wasn't from a magic hat, could you enlighten us a bit?

Bear in mind, that drivers pay much, much more tax for their fuel in Denmark, too, compared to the U.S. Fuel taxes are a major part of many European countries tax income.

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