Live data from Hacker News

The Real Adam Smith

aeon.co

81–90 of 125 posts

Re: The Real Adam Smith

#81
This is disingenuous in a number of places. For example, it quotes the passage in the Wealth of Nations warning of collusion between merchants:

>>As he put it in The Wealth of Nations: ‘People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.’

It uses this as a data point to support the contention that:

>>It is an irony of history that Smith’s most famous idea is now usually invoked as a defence of unregulated markets in the face of state interference, so as to protect the interests of private capitalists. For this is roughly the opposite of Smith’s original intention, which was to advocate for restrictions on what groups of merchants could do.

Which is absolute nonsense. Sangar omits the context in which the collusion passage appears. Immediately following that paragraph, we find this:

>>It is impossible indeed to prevent such meetings, by any law which either could be executed, or would be consistent with liberty and justice. But though the law cannot hinder people of the same trade from sometimes assembling together, it ought to do nothing to facilitate such assemblies; much less to render them necessary. A regulation which obliges all those of the same trade in a particular town to enter their names and places of abode in a public register, facilitates such assemblies. . . . A regulation which enables those of the same trade to tax themselves in order to provide for their poor, their sick, their widows, and orphans, by giving them a common interest to manage, renders such assemblies necessary. An incorporation not only renders them necessary, but makes the act of the majority binding upon the whole.

So Smith very much endorses "unregulated markets in the face of state interference", which Sagar claims "is roughly the opposite of Smith’s original intention".

Re: The Real Adam Smith

#82
post #38

The writer tries to pretend that there is something drastically opposite from knowing that the state captured by business is different from the danger of mere statism. Well, the answer that preserves liberty is to reduce the chances of the state being captured. This begins by having a limited govt. If the madam of the bordello is out of business, there is no need for customers to line up

"This begins by having a limited gov't" No, that's oversimplistic and silly. I'm all for having leaner operations as far as that goes, but let's say there's a new law restricting people from bribing elected officials, complete with a funded enforcement arm.. is that 'less' or 'more' government? 'less' or 'more' liberty? You will never, ever, ever have a government that's too small to be worth bribing.

> You will never, ever, ever have a government that's too small to be worth bribing.

Sure, orchestrating a state that has 0 returns to bribery is likely not possible without complete anarchism. That being said, not every state is going to have ridiculous returns to bribery (or more generally, "bureaucracy hacking") that we see today.

Before he became public enemy #1 and his sketchy financial dealings were uncovered, what returns did Martin Shkreli get because of weird FDA rules about generics and clinical trials? There may be some aspects of the FDA that are beneficial such that the benefits outweigh the costs (although off the top of my head I can't think of any), but clearly a smaller FDA with less (arbitrary) rule-making and enforcement authority would not have allowed Shkreli to explode the price of Daraprim.

Shkreli is a single example, but this happens all the time. Environmental protection departments are reluctant to punish land developers because they depend on the various land developers' fees for their budget, but will go after individuals with exorbitant fines for relatively mundane infractions. And we could talk all day about the ridiculousness of zoning regulations and the various zoning commissars/bureaucrats who effectively make small-scale, grass-roots, spontaneous land development impossible, and essentially only allow large developers or corporations who can afford to navigate the legal minefield of zoning rules.

Ideally, I'd like to have the returns to bribery be zero, but if that's not possible, then somewhere less than one would be nice. I have seen no real estimates of the returns to bribery in the West today - I'm not even sure such research exists yet - but I would guess that the returns are significantly greater than 1.

Re: The Real Adam Smith

#83
post #43

I'm surprised it didn't mention an obvious difference from modern conceptions of the free market: he thought landownership was a monopoly privilege that could be taxed without harm, so long as you are taxing only the land rent itself, not the improvements. "Ground-rents are a still more proper subject of taxation than the rent of houses. A tax upon ground-rents would not raise the rents of houses. It would fall altog…

Smith does not seem to be a private-propery-idealist as almost anyone in the mainstream today. Take this passage for example, also from book V. "Wherever there is great property there is great inequality. For one very rich man there must be at least five hundred poor, and the affluence of the few supposes the indigence of the many. The affluence of the rich excites the indignation of the poor, who are often both driv…

Also note this passage, as a counter-point:

>>[The rich] consume little more than the poor, and in spite of their natural selfishness and rapacity…they divide with the poor the produce of all their improvements. They are led by an invisible hand to make nearly the same distribution of the necessaries of life, which would have been made, had the earth been divided into equal portions among all its inhabitants, and thus without intending it, without knowing it, advance the interest of the society, and afford means to the multiplication of the species.

Re: The Real Adam Smith

#84
post #71
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? How does a logical fallacy become okay if it is in response to the same logical fallacy?

Appeals to authority aren't necessarily fallacious, if the authority being cited is actually an authority .

Thanks for pointing this out. I appreciate the sentiment behind critiquing a blind reliance on authority but lately online I've seen a lot of knee jerk rejections of any authority which I find counter-productive at best. Surely we can agree that our presence on an online discussion forum doesn't obviate the fact that some people who have spent years professionally researching a topic are likely to have a stronger claim to knowing about it than those who haven't.

Re: The Real Adam Smith

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no "of course" about it. If you're going to claim that the problem is the existence of the state, you need a lot more evidence than "of course". Certainly you cannot claim the support of Adam Smith in your assertion.

sufficient evidence was provided by Rothbard, et al.

Sufficient to claim that the problem is the existence of the state? No, I don't think that they provided anything like sufficient evidence for that claim.

Rothbard did a lot of claiming, I'll grant you that. Sufficient evidence for such large claims? No.

Re: The Real Adam Smith

#86
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This begins by having a limited gov't" No, that's oversimplistic and silly. I'm all for having leaner operations as far as that goes, but let's say there's a new law restricting people from bribing elected officials, complete with a funded enforcement arm.. is that 'less' or 'more' government? 'less' or 'more' liberty? You will never, ever, ever have a government that's too small to be worth bribing.

> You will never, ever, ever have a government that's too small to be worth bribing. Sure, orchestrating a state that has 0 returns to bribery is likely not possible without complete anarchism. That being said, not every state is going to have ridiculous returns to bribery (or more generally, "bureaucracy hacking") that we see today. Before he became public enemy #1 and his sketchy financial dealings were uncovered,…

If you want to talk about continuous, evidence-based, detailed and unsexy reform of various laws and regulations in search of efficiency, I'm all on board. We all do that at our day jobs.

But none of that shit fits on a bumper sticker saying 'taxation is theft' or whatever, and it'll never be a byline on Fox News. I couldn't even give a short, vaguely accurate description of the FDA trials process, let alone an expert description. I think there are 4 stages? That's where I cap out. It sounds like you couldn't, either. But the current system, whatever its flaws, doesn't allow people to ship poisonous babyfood like happened in China a few years ago. Successful reform preserves the whole "don't kill people" thing while increasing efficiency.

Platitudes about 'small government' and 'liberty' don't enable reform, they hamper it by banishing thought. Look at the tea party's legislative record.

Re: The Real Adam Smith

#87
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree it has to be a democracy. The right points to harms of government overreach to argue for less government. The left points to exploding inequality and argues for more government in order to tackle it. A good faith assumption could be that both are trying to decentralize power and maybe putting it that way will make it easier to reach across the ideological divide.

I think there's an increasingly compelling argument to be made at this moment in history, with the rise of powerful increasingly intelligent software that can 1) rigorously shape policy to ensure that ends are met and that 2) the means to those ends employ minimal bias, and 3) do so adaptively, shifting policy dynamically as circumstances evolve. I believe it's time to start planning for the day when we shutter the v…

Democratic popular vote did not lead to a dysfunctional state. The lack of democratic vote has led to the problem. We have two entrenched parties because of our winner take all system, gerrymandering designed to take away voter rights, laws restricting rights to vote, and vast media conglomerates.

Re: The Real Adam Smith

#88

This is disingenuous in a number of places. For example, it quotes the passage in the Wealth of Nations warning of collusion between merchants: >>As he put it in The Wealth of Nations: ‘People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.’ It uses this as a data point to support the content…

How on earth do you read that as endorsing unregulated markets in the face of state interference?

Re: The Real Adam Smith

#89
post #43

I'm surprised it didn't mention an obvious difference from modern conceptions of the free market: he thought landownership was a monopoly privilege that could be taxed without harm, so long as you are taxing only the land rent itself, not the improvements. "Ground-rents are a still more proper subject of taxation than the rent of houses. A tax upon ground-rents would not raise the rents of houses. It would fall altog…

Smith does not seem to be a private-propery-idealist as almost anyone in the mainstream today. Take this passage for example, also from book V. "Wherever there is great property there is great inequality. For one very rich man there must be at least five hundred poor, and the affluence of the few supposes the indigence of the many. The affluence of the rich excites the indignation of the poor, who are often both driv…

Adam Smith was the Piketty of his time.

I'm guessing this is generally not obvious to the people who frequently cite him or portray him as some sort of free market champion.

It's interesting how the issues addressed by him are just as relevant 240 years later, the main ones being insufficient taxation of wealthy landowners and eventual consolidation of capital.

Re: The Real Adam Smith

#90

This is disingenuous in a number of places. For example, it quotes the passage in the Wealth of Nations warning of collusion between merchants: >>As he put it in The Wealth of Nations: ‘People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.’ It uses this as a data point to support the content…

How on earth do you read that as endorsing unregulated markets in the face of state interference?

I can't imagine how you don't see it.

All of his warnings are against regulations that make collusion more likely, and he explicitly says that it would be impossible for any regulation that would prohibit people from the same trade from meeting to "be executed" or "be consistent with liberty and justice".

Every single admonishment was against regulations, whether on grounds of contributing to collusion, or being unenforceable and inconsistent with "liberty and justice".

Post reply on HN