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Fuze for Nintendo Switch: An easy-to-learn text-based programming language

fuze.co.uk

71–80 of 106 posts

Re: Fuze for Nintendo Switch: An easy-to-learn text-based programming language

#71

This looks awesome and I can't wait to give it a whirl with my kids. I am, however, a little concerned about one of Dijkstra's "unpleasant truths"[0]: > It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration. I'm not qualified to interpret Dijkstra, so how serious of a warning or truth…

My first exposure was to BASIC and I turned out fine, like countless others. Remember that Dijkstra was an academic and a fairly radical one at that; people like him pushed the envelope in the best way, but despite their protests and the inadequacies of the languages, COBOL, PL/I, BASIC, and other such languages are "how the West was won."

Re: Fuze for Nintendo Switch: An easy-to-learn text-based programming language

#72
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's fantastic that it brings us right back to one of the things that made the first home computers so compelling: the ability to see what you just did on your TV.

Eh, what. You can connect any modern device to a tv through hdmi and hdmi convertor. Pc:s, phones, pads...

I've noticed this kind of response before - recall that when Dropbox was first shown to HN, one of the responses was something along the lines of "This is trivial to set up with a linux box and (esoteric techno-babble follows)."

Not wrong, per se, but a super-technical HN reader was not the target of Dropbox, and I feel like it's the same situation here.

While you could, I guess, plug your HDMI cable from your computer running your first hello world python program onto a screen, I think there's something much more tangible and incredible to a child to run their own code on the device they usually play video games on. As a 10 year old, I would flux around with the debugger cheat in my Star Wars n64 game and think "well obviously these numbers change the color of fog, but how on earth did they code the actual game? The characters? The lasers?" What's being demonstrated here is "look kids, it IS possible for YOU to write code and run it on a video game console! YOU can become a game developer, if you learn about this stuff!"

Another anecdote - my uncle gave me his old computer to pull to pieces, I wanted to know how it went from circuits to showing Windows on the screen. I finally get to what he kept calling the "motherboard" and "processor," which he said is where most of the work is happening. So I pulled off the processor, disappointed at just seeing more circuits. He said there was even more circuitry inside it, so I cracked it open to find a black blob of I guess silicon. Nothing revealing how it worked! "What'd you expect to find," he asked, "a brain?" Imagine if the gap had someone been bridged by the existence of arduinos back then, or even just redstone in minecraft - a direct link between logic gates and, say, a calculator working.

Re: Fuze for Nintendo Switch: An easy-to-learn text-based programming language

#73
post #65
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, what. You can connect any modern device to a tv through hdmi and hdmi convertor. Pc:s, phones, pads...

Yes, you can hook up a laptop to a TV. Then you'll sit down your eight year old and explain all of the messy tooling and errata of :insertlanguagehere:, and after multiple hours of stumbling through an IDE with too many features for them to comprehend (or a CLI environment that simply frustrates them), they'll say "damn, this sucks." It was without a doubt significantly easier to start programming when the process co…

Almost every old wizard-level programmer I've talked to started off by being massively inspired by the ability to program games when they were kids.

A teaching technique as old as teaching - find something the kid is actively interested in and excited about, and sneakily teach them stuff using that.

Re: Fuze for Nintendo Switch: An easy-to-learn text-based programming language

#74
post #56

Is anyone else greatly annoyed by the FUZE/Python comparison block on the homepage (fuze.co.uk, ~halfway down the page) that compares the Fuze loop and Python? They write the "print" statement like it's damn Java. A simple `print(outstring)` would have been sufficient, instead of two lines of Java-esque sys.stdout.write nonsense. Not to mention something like `colored` and `colorama` or `click` would solve the colore…

Not to mention "FUZE is widely accepted as an ideal resource for teaching coding", and I'm pretty sure 99% of us never heard of the language before...

Re: Fuze for Nintendo Switch: An easy-to-learn text-based programming language

#75

This looks awesome and I can't wait to give it a whirl with my kids. I am, however, a little concerned about one of Dijkstra's "unpleasant truths"[0]: > It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration. I'm not qualified to interpret Dijkstra, so how serious of a warning or truth…

Dijkstra had very strong opinions on structured programming, and BASICs in the 70s were very different to today's.

Consider the language reference for Altair BASIC (linked at http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Altair/Altair_Basic.htm) - almost all of the flow control is by line number references.

By contrast, FUZE (https://fuzebasic.com/bin/FUZEBASIC_Programmers_Reference_Gu...) looks like it has all of the modern affordances you'd expect, like block IF statements, local variables, and the ability to refer to subroutines by name instead of by line number.

Re: Fuze for Nintendo Switch: An easy-to-learn text-based programming language

#76
post #29

Does anyone have any experience with developing home-brew or indie games on the Switch here? I've considered getting one, but I'm limited by the rule "never buy a system for which I can't develop my own software" .. to what extent is this true of the Switch? I'd love to put my Lua-based programming IDE on the Switch, which turns out is a bit similar to this Fuze project .. but I'm un-certain just how much of the Swit…

Check out https://yuzu-emu.org/

They're still in the early stages, but it's promising considering it's from the same team that made the successful Citra 3DS emulator. I know it's not technically "developing on the Switch", but it might give some insight.

Re: Fuze for Nintendo Switch: An easy-to-learn text-based programming language

#77
post #61

This looks awesome and I can't wait to give it a whirl with my kids. I am, however, a little concerned about one of Dijkstra's "unpleasant truths"[0]: > It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration. I'm not qualified to interpret Dijkstra, so how serious of a warning or truth…

First, we teach people variables, loops and conditions. Then we teach them procedures. Then we are horrified that newly minted "programmers" write code that is a giant mess of nested loops and conditionals, split across arbitrarily created procedures that manage bloated and fully mutable program state. Mental models are important. Life would be better for everyone if people started learning programming with LISP, Sma…

Could you recommend a remedy for someone who's spent a great chunk of their programming experience in misdirection?

I have only recently realised that my terrible misunderstanding of programming is slowing me a lot.

Re: Fuze for Nintendo Switch: An easy-to-learn text-based programming language

#78
post #73
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you can hook up a laptop to a TV. Then you'll sit down your eight year old and explain all of the messy tooling and errata of :insertlanguagehere:, and after multiple hours of stumbling through an IDE with too many features for them to comprehend (or a CLI environment that simply frustrates them), they'll say "damn, this sucks." It was without a doubt significantly easier to start programming when the process co…

Almost every old wizard-level programmer I've talked to started off by being massively inspired by the ability to program games when they were kids. A teaching technique as old as teaching - find something the kid is actively interested in and excited about, and sneakily teach them stuff using that.

Not wizard-level but I got started programming on a ZX-81 (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8a/Si...)

Which was a few years old then, the games such as they where never held any interest but a machine that could be told what to do was magic to me.

I could write programs on a ZX Speccy before I could read (properly) and that started a life-long love (and career) in software development.

Re: Fuze for Nintendo Switch: An easy-to-learn text-based programming language

#79
post #77
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, we teach people variables, loops and conditions. Then we teach them procedures. Then we are horrified that newly minted "programmers" write code that is a giant mess of nested loops and conditionals, split across arbitrarily created procedures that manage bloated and fully mutable program state. Mental models are important. Life would be better for everyone if people started learning programming with LISP, Sma…

Could you recommend a remedy for someone who's spent a great chunk of their programming experience in misdirection? I have only recently realised that my terrible misunderstanding of programming is slowing me a lot.

Depends on your background, if you are .Net maybe F#, Java maybe Kotlin, PHP (and I say this as someone who writes PHP as a day job) maybe any other language in existence.

Functional programming is a completely different conceptual model and even if you don't use it day to day it teaches you some important principles.

Re: Fuze for Nintendo Switch: An easy-to-learn text-based programming language

#80
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you recommend a remedy for someone who's spent a great chunk of their programming experience in misdirection? I have only recently realised that my terrible misunderstanding of programming is slowing me a lot.

Depends on your background, if you are .Net maybe F#, Java maybe Kotlin, PHP (and I say this as someone who writes PHP as a day job) maybe any other language in existence. Functional programming is a completely different conceptual model and even if you don't use it day to day it teaches you some important principles.

I have been badly taught Java at university (not sure if the course sucked, or I did, but I am a blunder) and have just found myself drawn into the JS world. I really enjoy the concepts of OO, but I feel like my knowledge is very shallow.

Is it good if I rebuild my foundation on JS? I feel like JS is a bit, uh, messy.

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