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JS Paint – A web-based MS Paint remake

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Re: JS Paint – A web-based MS Paint remake

#181

Post by badsectoracula »

pjmlp wrote: post #173
kuschku wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java gave us an environment where it was easy to create complex applications quickly as well. The web will fade away just like Java did.

I do like Java, but sometimes get a bit pissed off how things went, because we had "an environment where it was easy to create complex applications quickly as well" in the form of Smalltalk, VB, Delphi and C++ Builder. With the exception of Smalltak, all had native code generation, then Java happened.

VB (i assume you mean classic VB, not VB.NET) wasn't really an environment to create complex applications though - at least not in VB itself. The best use for VB would be to use to mix together components made in other languages (often C and C++). If anything people who tried to use VB as the implementation language for complex stuff regretted it later.

I agree about Delphi and C++ Builder though, but Borland seemed hellbent on chasing enterprise unicorns - and pricing their products according to those dreams - so the software and the ecosystem suffered because of it.

I'm not sure about Smalltalk since i haven't used it much to know, although the first time i came in contact with was with a demo of IBM's VisualAge Smalltalk that was given on a magazine coverdisk and i ran away screaming (ie. deleted it immediately) when it took ages for the environment to load and do anything on the 4MB 386 i had and even then after following the simplistic tutorial it created an "executable" (that actually needed some other stuff to run) that was like 10MB (which for my 130MB HDD was a gigantic waste of space). Of course that was probably the entire image, but i didn't knew it at the time - and it wouldn't change much really, i needed the space for games and other stuff :-P.

I remember liking being able to drag arrows between elements in the GUI to hook events and properties together. I haven't seen that bit in the little i played with Pharo some time ago, i wonder if it was VA-specific. I tried to run the demo when i got a better PC, but for some reason it wouldn't work in Windows 95 and it has been years since i lost the disk. I wonder if it is available somewhere online but all searches point me to IBM's pages that have nothing.

Re: JS Paint – A web-based MS Paint remake

#184

Post by pjmlp »

badsectoracula wrote: post #181
pjmlp wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do like Java, but sometimes get a bit pissed off how things went, because we had "an environment where it was easy to create complex applications quickly as well" in the form of Smalltalk, VB, Delphi and C++ Builder. With the exception of Smalltak, all had native code generation, then Java happened.

VB (i assume you mean classic VB, not VB.NET) wasn't really an environment to create complex applications though - at least not in VB itself. The best use for VB would be to use to mix together components made in other languages (often C and C++). If anything people who tried to use VB as the implementation language for complex stuff regretted it later. I agree about Delphi and C++ Builder though, but Borland seemed…

Starting with version 5, VB allowed the creation of COM components natively, and could generate pure native code, not like the previous versions that just embedded the p-code inside a binary with a VM.

I have seen several enterprise level applications, with distributed objects (DCOM) and transactions, written purely in VB.

Including my first sight of an "Electron" app, exposing several COM libraries, written in VB, into a MSHTML container, using those objects from JScript in the page!

Regarding Borland, when Java came into picture, the company was still doing alright, and their Java development environment was designed similarly to the Delphi and C++ ones.

Their problems and change of focus came afterwards, when they lost a few people to Microsoft, including Anders, whose first project was to design Microsoft's Java implementation, J++.

Re: JS Paint – A web-based MS Paint remake

#187

Post by badsectoracula »

pjmlp wrote: post #184
badsectoracula wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VB (i assume you mean classic VB, not VB.NET) wasn't really an environment to create complex applications though - at least not in VB itself. The best use for VB would be to use to mix together components made in other languages (often C and C++). If anything people who tried to use VB as the implementation language for complex stuff regretted it later. I agree about Delphi and C++ Builder though, but Borland seemed…

Starting with version 5, VB allowed the creation of COM components natively, and could generate pure native code, not like the previous versions that just embedded the p-code inside a binary with a VM. I have seen several enterprise level applications, with distributed objects (DCOM) and transactions, written purely in VB. Including my first sight of an "Electron" app, exposing several COM libraries, written in VB, i…

VB5 indeed allows that (i have a VB5 box i got off ebay some time ago :-) and i've spent a lot of time with that and with CCE before that), but the language isn't really that friendly towards complex applications. But FWIW i think that VB lost its way around version 4 or 5 anyway :-P.

About Borland and Java, i actually have JBuilder 2 (again off ebay - i collect old development software :-P) and yes it does look nice and sort of friendly (although it is far from Delphi's level of ease of use). I think the entire thing is built on Java too. Sadly it doesn't seem to work in modern Windows - even the applications it creates throw exceptions.

Re: JS Paint – A web-based MS Paint remake

#189

Post by dahart »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #49
blt wrote: post #41

The UI and behavior is amazingly close to the real thing. But I cannot help but sigh when the brush tool lags more than Paint lagged on a 233 MHz Celeron. I really think this is an awesome project, but I am old enough (30) to remember fast performing GUI apps and I don't know if I'll ever "get over" losing them. edit: hopefully it is an inefficient implementation and not the inherent slowness of web apps.

One thing I noticed is that it doesn't draw zoomed-in images correctly - pixels are blurry. Didn't check if this is Canvas or WebGL, but something in the code begs being changed from LINEAR to NEAREST. (EDIT: turns out to be a Firefox issue; Chrome shows the sweet pretty pixels correctly.) > I really think this is an awesome project, but I am old enough (30) to remember fast performing GUI apps and I don't know if I'…

> We're doomed to use slow and shitty software until the present web fads go away and the ecosystem stabilizes.

I have two possibly conflicting thoughts about this. (I'm a little bit older, and I feel like this has nothing to do with the web.)

One, everything computer related was much, much slower, and much, much shittier when MS Paint first came out. I feel like software and software standards and hardware and the web, all of it, has improved.

Two, I'm not convinced we'll ever escape shitty software, I think we always have and always will have slow and shitty software, outside the web and inside. We always want the machine to do more than we have a budget for, we always want to write features in less time than we have, we always want cooler features than others, etc., etc. Keeping software fast and good is time consuming, expensive, takes more self control than most have, and often just isn't the highest economic priority. In short, I think there are legitimate reasons we're always sitting at the threshold of pain rather than the threshold of pleasure.

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