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Microsoft MakeCode

makecode.com

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Re: Microsoft MakeCode

#51

Post by nukeop »

yaseer wrote: post #45
nukeop wrote: post #41

It's sad that these "get everyone and their dog into 'coding'" initiatives by large companies are just attempts to provide cheap workers for themselves in the future. There's so many of them, and yet there's no evidence that they help anyone other than the company's PR team in generating exposure and promoting their products.

This isn't the only reason. It's obvious that coding is becoming a skill on par with math for its utility in the modern world. If more people understand the fundamentals of coding, it will completely change the user interfaces and sophistication of applications in the future. People will be able to code up simple features and behaviours they need, for example.

Most people don't have the analytical approach engineering-minded people have. They understand most of their surrounding reality in terms of blackboxes. Pull a trigger and a bullet comes out. Press a button and receive a parking card. Touch the screen and the facebook app launches. They're not interested in the internal mechanisms. And if you're not already interested in that, then no amount of coding bootcamps are going to spark that interest.

Re: Microsoft MakeCode

#52

Post by codeulike »

maruhan2 wrote: post #40
TeMPOraL wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[citation needed], as the very next paragraph of GP's asks: > Has anyone actually made a complex project with these initiatives, and had it spark an interest in computing/electronics that didn't already exist? Have they managed to make the jump from visual interfaces to lines-of-code? Is there any evidence that these programs REALLY help when it comes to engaging a wider group of people? -- Personally, I'm not sure i…

Except there are html, css, javascript. Everyone already uses a browser so nothing to set up. Just code and open it in your browser.

I don't think anything could scare a child away from programming faster than the three headed hydra that is html, css and javascript.

I mean, I know how we got to where we are and it makes sense - "thing works, use thing more". But with html+js+css the amount of bullshit about angle brackets and ids and names and escape characters and css quirks and floating divs and lambdas and selector syntax that you need to get through before you can make a rudimentary game or interactive page is very unfriendly.

Re: Microsoft MakeCode

#53

Post by pjmlp »

medleybron wrote: post #46
nukeop wrote: post #41

It's sad that these "get everyone and their dog into 'coding'" initiatives by large companies are just attempts to provide cheap workers for themselves in the future. There's so many of them, and yet there's no evidence that they help anyone other than the company's PR team in generating exposure and promoting their products.

it does help unemployed people

Unemployed people would be helped if business wouldn't be so greedy in their selection criteria, and would give a position to anyone actually wanting to work there, instead of spending months looking for the perfect candidate that would be willing to work at the misery they want to pay.

EDIT: typo

Re: Microsoft MakeCode

#54

Post by Lxr »

anonytrary wrote: post #22
leggomylibro wrote: post #14

Wow, cool - the 'block editor' looks a lot like Scratch. Is it Scratch? I'm having trouble finding many details about the technical side of it. I think 'visual programming' has a lot of promise for education, but...jeez, after looking into it for awhile I'm sort of losing hope that it isn't a gimmick or fad. Has anyone actually made a complex project with these initiatives, and had it spark an interest in computing/e…

> I'm sort of losing hope that it isn't a gimmick or fad Visual coding is huge among people who aren't technical. I first got into "programming" when I was 9, through lego robots, they had a visual control flow thingy, basically visual coding. I think that must have helped me understand programming and its implications much faster when I got into college. Visual programming is not ergonomic enough to justify never wr…

Was it Lego Mindstorms? Man I had so much fun with that as a kid. I would totally recommend it for learning to code too.

Re: Microsoft MakeCode

#55

Post by pjmlp »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #37
crispinb wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think 'visual programming' has a lot of promise for education, but...jeez, after looking into it for awhile I'm sort of losing hope that it isn't a gimmick or fad This comment strikes me as slightly oxymoronic. If it does fulfil its promise for education, how can it just be a fad? Is education of no value? Even in narrow instrumental terms, it has value in providing a pleasurable and accessible approach for kids…

[citation needed], as the very next paragraph of GP's asks: > Has anyone actually made a complex project with these initiatives, and had it spark an interest in computing/electronics that didn't already exist? Have they managed to make the jump from visual interfaces to lines-of-code? Is there any evidence that these programs REALLY help when it comes to engaging a wider group of people? -- Personally, I'm not sure i…

> About the only case where I can imagine "visual programming" being better than writing code is if you're trying to teach 3-5 y.o.

Visual programming is the way most people work in electronics and game industry.

I really enjoyed designing my own circuits, making parts into usable components for my toolbox and visually simulate its behavior.

Just like doing shaders is way more productive to visualize the intended effect doing it graphically than typing GLSL/HLSL code.

Re: Microsoft MakeCode

#56

Post by pjmlp »

maruhan2 wrote: post #40
TeMPOraL wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[citation needed], as the very next paragraph of GP's asks: > Has anyone actually made a complex project with these initiatives, and had it spark an interest in computing/electronics that didn't already exist? Have they managed to make the jump from visual interfaces to lines-of-code? Is there any evidence that these programs REALLY help when it comes to engaging a wider group of people? -- Personally, I'm not sure i…

Except there are html, css, javascript. Everyone already uses a browser so nothing to set up. Just code and open it in your browser.

That was in the happy days of Web 1.0.

In 2018, it looks a bit different because VanillaJS is so 90's.

Re: Microsoft MakeCode

#57

Post by crispinb »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #37
crispinb wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think 'visual programming' has a lot of promise for education, but...jeez, after looking into it for awhile I'm sort of losing hope that it isn't a gimmick or fad This comment strikes me as slightly oxymoronic. If it does fulfil its promise for education, how can it just be a fad? Is education of no value? Even in narrow instrumental terms, it has value in providing a pleasurable and accessible approach for kids…

[citation needed], as the very next paragraph of GP's asks: > Has anyone actually made a complex project with these initiatives, and had it spark an interest in computing/electronics that didn't already exist? Have they managed to make the jump from visual interfaces to lines-of-code? Is there any evidence that these programs REALLY help when it comes to engaging a wider group of people? -- Personally, I'm not sure i…

> Personally, I'm not sure if "visual programming" itself is introducing anything useful to make education easier. The difficult thing in getting started in writing code isn't writing,

I worked with a 6 year old child yesterday, who was exposed to Scratch for the first time. Within the class hour she had several animations running, all controlled from the keyboard. It was all her own work -- I just showed her the ropes and checked in with her from time to time whilst rotating amongst a bunch of kids.

What the 'visual' syntax offers in this instance is a discoverable palette of things to play with, and visual cues for what fits with what. That's far harder with a linguistic syntax, particularly for young kids, as you suggest.

I'm quite new to teaching programming, so don't have much to go on. I'd say the main problem with Scratch is making a transition from dragging blocks to writing code. I'll be interested to see if the MakeCode/code.org approach is helpful

Re: Microsoft MakeCode

#58

Post by Aaargh20318 »

pjmlp wrote: post #53
medleybron wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it does help unemployed people

Unemployed people would be helped if business wouldn't be so greedy in their selection criteria, and would give a position to anyone actually wanting to work there, instead of spending months looking for the perfect candidate that would be willing to work at the misery they want to pay. EDIT: typo

> spending months looking for the perfect candidate that would be willing to work at the misery that want to pay.

That's what I don't understand. These companies completely forget the law of supply and demand when it comes to hiring. They keep complaining they can't find anyone yet the salary they are offering stays the same. I'll bet that if you double or triple what you're paying that shortage you're complaining about will mysteriously disappear.

Re: Microsoft MakeCode

#59

Post by madeofpalk »

nukeop wrote: post #51
yaseer wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't the only reason. It's obvious that coding is becoming a skill on par with math for its utility in the modern world. If more people understand the fundamentals of coding, it will completely change the user interfaces and sophistication of applications in the future. People will be able to code up simple features and behaviours they need, for example.

Most people don't have the analytical approach engineering-minded people have. They understand most of their surrounding reality in terms of blackboxes. Pull a trigger and a bullet comes out. Press a button and receive a parking card. Touch the screen and the facebook app launches. They're not interested in the internal mechanisms. And if you're not already interested in that, then no amount of coding bootcamps are g…

Sure, but a lot of people don't have the mindset required for cooking or construction or sports, yet these are still things we teach in school and try to make accessible for more people.

Re: Microsoft MakeCode

#60

Post by dagw »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #58
pjmlp wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unemployed people would be helped if business wouldn't be so greedy in their selection criteria, and would give a position to anyone actually wanting to work there, instead of spending months looking for the perfect candidate that would be willing to work at the misery they want to pay. EDIT: typo

> spending months looking for the perfect candidate that would be willing to work at the misery that want to pay. That's what I don't understand. These companies completely forget the law of supply and demand when it comes to hiring. They keep complaining they can't find anyone yet the salary they are offering stays the same. I'll bet that if you double or triple what you're paying that shortage you're complaining ab…

If the salary stays the same it's because that is the value having someone in that position produces for the company. Paying your employees more than the value they produce is a quick was to bankruptcy.
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