Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger

#351

Post by average_person » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 5:33 PM UTC

mancerayder wrote: post #210

komali2 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love bitcoin and cryptocurrency as potential solutions to problems with gov-controlled currencies (I've used crypto to buy drugs, for example). But I'm still confused why people refer to purchasing currency as an "investment." Obviously the rates are going up now, but doesn't everyone expect them to just come back down? I don't convert my USD to Yen and call it an "investment."

Might some argue that some of the capital being placed in these currencies, whether they're by clever millionaires who studied whitepapers, or Uber drivers (as the anecdote goes) who jumped in after taking out a line of credit on the house, is investment in some of the companies behind the tech? For example, BTC companies like Blockstream funded things like satellites, while the Ethereum founder has been donating mon…

I woould like people to start using the word 'currencies' because they are not.

Following Investopedia 'Currency is a generally accepted form of money, including coins and paper notes, which is issued by a government and circulated within an economy. Used as a medium of exchange for goods and services, currency is the basis for trade.'

crypto is not generally accepted form of money; not issued by a government; circulated within economy - somehow yes.

So they don't fulfill all the requirements.

Re: Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger

#352

Post by jstarfish » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 6:12 PM UTC

celticninja wrote: post #336

jstarfish wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if it's your primary residence. Your summer home or a rental property, sure.

Where is this? In the UK and from what I could see in the US it would be included.

The US, through the provisions of the bankruptcy homestead exemption. Though having just looked into it again, they only allow you to retain up to a certain amount of equity in your primary residence-- anything more than that (or other properties you own) is considered an asset that can be leveraged to pay back your debts, as you suggest.

So someone with a cheap house or little equity could still Bain Capital themselves with Bitcoin, declare bankruptcy and start over while avoiding homelessness. But if you're 90% of the way through a half-million-dollar mortgage then yeah you'll have a lien placed on the property.

http://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/bankruptcy/homestead-exe...

Re: Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger

#353

Post by komali2 » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 6:47 PM UTC

average_person wrote: post #351

mancerayder wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might some argue that some of the capital being placed in these currencies, whether they're by clever millionaires who studied whitepapers, or Uber drivers (as the anecdote goes) who jumped in after taking out a line of credit on the house, is investment in some of the companies behind the tech? For example, BTC companies like Blockstream funded things like satellites, while the Ethereum founder has been donating mon…

I woould like people to start using the word 'currencies' because they are not. Following Investopedia 'Currency is a generally accepted form of money, including coins and paper notes, which is issued by a government and circulated within an economy. Used as a medium of exchange for goods and services, currency is the basis for trade.' crypto is not generally accepted form of money; not issued by a government; circul…

I feel like the first two aspects - "generally accepted, issued by a government" are unnecessary. If someone will take it as a medium for exchange, then that's currency to me.

I always thought of it as "otherwise value-less representation of value." All the currency I can think of fits this definition - including gold! Gold is only really valuable recently for circuits and the like.

Re: Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger

#354

Post by defertoreptar » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 6:47 PM UTC

pejrich wrote: post #307

defertoreptar wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should Bitcoin cost so much just because the future may depend on it? That's a good case for why it will continue to exist, but it could also exist and do it's job at $1.00 / btc. I think it's a couple of things that Buffett is looking at. First, like gold, Bitcoin is not a business and does not produce earnings. Second, people seem to be buying it for no other reason than that they think it'll keep going up. Tha…

> but it could also exist and do it's job at $1.00 / btc. Probably one of the stupidest comments I've read on here. You display not even a basic understanding of how Bitcoin or economics work. If I have a successful company with 100 shares. People will want those shares which will drive the price up. To fix the price at $1.00, or to dilute shares to keep the price at $1.00 is just ridiculous.

Who's saying anything about "fixing" a price or diluting shares?

Bitcoin's exchange rate is a function of supply in demand. It could exist and do its job with low demand (e.g. $1.00 / btc) or high demand (today's price). What is the reason for the high demand? The answer is speculation that the price will continue to rise.

The point I was making is that if people were using it only as a only as a currency, then the price very well could be $1.00 / btc. The reason it's so high is because people in large numbers are buying and holding it as an investment, reducing the supply.

Re: Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger

#355

Post by AstralStorm » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 7:44 PM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #66

omegaworks wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the blockchain grows ever larger the thing gets more and more useless as a currency. Just look at how long it takes a transaction to confirm.* It's digital Beanie Babies. * https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-confirmation-time?timespa...

Yep, these comparisons between Bitcoin and other successful technologies are like a new type of fallacy (techno-fallacy?) where people assume that because it's technically-complex it is somehow destined to succeed like other technically-complex successes. It's a form of survivor bias because you never see or think about the technically-complex failures, or "not-successes", like the Tamagatchi, Laser disc, WebTV, Webv…

Tamagotchi were actually a success that has rescued Bandai. Millions were sold. Tiny numbers are still sold to this day which is quite a longevity for a fad toy.

Re: Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger

#356

Post by rconti » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 9:25 PM UTC

phil21 wrote: post #254

rconti wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, if you cherry pick. What ever happened to the supposed value of "hot" domain names? Right, we got search, and got used to typing in weird strings, and stopped caring about owning car.com or whatever.

> What ever happened to the supposed value of "hot" domain names? Skyrocketed in value from hundreds of dollars in the mid-late 90's to tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars today? Not sure that's the point you were trying to make though :)

There are a lot of very generic domain names out there that were worth millions in the late 90s and never got used, and sit parked today.

Businesses are more willing to spend to have "their" domain name, perhaps, but the overall value of a "hot" domain name seems lower.

Re: Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger

#357

Post by cies » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 10:05 PM UTC

brucephillips wrote: post #261

cies wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Volatility only exists in comparison. BTC and Gold in one graph: http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/59975b50f1a85079738... I'd say in this comparison gold is the stable option.

No, it doesn't. Volatility is defined in terms of an asset's past prices, not in terms of other assets.

Ok. I stand corrected. But what I meant to say is, that labeling something as "very volatile" only works in comparison.

Re: Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger

#358

Post by buildawesome » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 10:27 PM UTC

cies wrote: post #251

trhway wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tether performs public service of "quantitative easing" :)

When the demand for USDT shrinks, will they also do quantative uneasing? As in buying back USDTs to the extend the value of one USDT cannot drop below $1? I do not think they will, because I do not think they can...

Essentially, this is what interest rates and the bond market is for.

Re: Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger

#359

Post by brucephillips » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 10:38 PM UTC

dk8996 wrote: post #273

brucephillips wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fiat currency is already programmable.

How so?

In various ways. ACH is essentially FTP. Traders execute trades programatically. There's no one standard API, but there are many programmatic ways to move money.

Re: Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger

#360

Post by Mandatum » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 12:00 AM UTC

spookthesunset wrote: post #288

Mandatum wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it decentralizes account fees, lending, term deposits, funds, everything. It turns the traditional banking model on its head because anyone can "become a bank" and handle the traditional "keep your money safe" model that banking was originally created for. Those getting paid for transactions will be those investing in the network infrastructure - which is also decentralized, because again - anyone can jump in…

Do bitcoin pumpers ever come up for air? None, I mean absolutely none of what you are writing will ever happen. Why? Because if Bitcoin boosters understood anything about politics, economics, math, finance, computer science, monetary policy, business, accounting, marketing or seemingly life in general.... they too would look at it and go "sounds way to good to be true. no thanks". Every single thing in your post make…

Aren't we already seeing this in developing countries? Zimbabwe for instance has a great peer-to-peer lending platform. Currently backed by a bank, but what if the currency was simply tokens pegged to fiat such as USD by another company? (Similar to what Cryptopia has done with NZDT.)

Another example I've seen in real world use is the "startup" retail banks popping up throughout Africa that have no offices, and are purely operated over mobile.

The lack of regulation in these countries have lead to massive leaps in innovation in the banking space. Seriously, you can read articles about it - but until you go to countries like Nigeria or Kenya and try it out, it's incredibly impressive.

I'm not a major investor in crypto anything, I think most, if not all, coins created right now are completely pointless - but blockchain as a public, auditible ledger and fiat-backed crypto/tokens I think we'll see some very cool innovation that own't overhaul the banking industry completely. There's too many smart people in banking to get "caught out".

However I do think we'll see some new contenders in the space as the industry begins to break down into smaller units. And that'll be good for everyone.