A new grad SDE makes 2x more in SF than Toronto after tax and COL • Hacker News Board

Re: A new grad SDE makes 2x more in SF than Toronto after tax and COL

#41

Post by apercu » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 3:10 PM UTC

I have mixed feelings when I see these posts. There are a lot of places that pay a lot less than SV, even comparable cities in the US. I don;t have an advanced degree, heck, I don't even have a STEM degree, but when I left my last Toronto job nearly 4 years ago my compensation was around ~200k.

Does that mean that if I was willing to a) work for someone and b) move to SV that I would be making 300-400k per year? Maybe (I'm a US citizen and Canadian permanent resident so I have that option).

I guess my issue is less of one comparing west coat development compensation to Ontario compensation and say that all over North America there is an issue of stagnant wages for everyone except the top financial/business minds and the above average tech workers. Canada lags a little behind SV in employee equity and feels like it still has a bit of a British class thing going where there is the elite (capital) and the commoners (labour). Except that it's purely financial (mostly) these days. Nowhere near as bad as, say, the Bahamas.

I see a lot of comments here that I agree with (moderate talent commanding wages that maybe they aren't really worth) but at the senior end, yea, it feels a little different in Canada - if you don't go in to management (I did, and hated it) you're likely to be capped (in most industries) at about $120k. That seems a little ridiculous in a time of record breaking corporate profits and startup valuations.

All that said, I spent a lot of time early in my career in Mountain View, Palo Alto, etc.. and while I appreciate a lot of things about Nor Cal there is no way I would move there. Heck, it's unlikely I would ever move back to the US. Canada is simply more in line with my values.

Re: A new grad SDE makes 2x more in SF than Toronto after tax and COL

#42

Post by apercu » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 3:16 PM UTC

piva00 wrote: post #33

ttul wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vancouver tech CEO here. We Canadian CEOs would love to pay our staff more, but our companies frankly suck compared to the powerhouse companies in the US. We just aren’t profitable enough. I think if you dig around, you will find that US tech companies are far better funded and thus working on things that generate more upside - for everyone. Another thing to consider is that there is a massive bull market going on. A…

How is the investors' risk mentality over there in Canada? I don't think the problem is profitability but simply money: US startups/companies have easier access to money as investors are willing to take more risks. I see the same effect here in Europe, companies have to run more "tightly" and carefully because money is not easy to come, not many will have a deep line of credit if their companies' life depend on money…

Canada (at least Ontario, I can't speak for the rest of the country) is significantly more risk averse than the US. On one hand it's a little annoying (you sort of have to talk a certain language here (meaning, project managers all use the same phrases, executives all talk the same, etc...) to truly fit in and rocking the boat isn't really celebrated.

On the other hand, Canadians don't celebrate failure (think Trump or someone else who has multiple bankruptcies taking down companies and negatively affecting the workers) anywhere near as much as we Americans seem to.

Re: A new grad SDE makes 2x more in SF than Toronto after tax and COL

#43

Post by kingofpandora » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 3:30 PM UTC

linguist_1 wrote: post #31

I had a Canadian colleague of mine describe it as the "1812 tax", basically the "tax" Canada pays for losing the 1812 war and failing to become a proper US state. Everything is more expensive, and the second grade currency doesn't shield them from price variations since the country is too small not to import most goods from the US. Not only that, but a single tariff can wipe out a whole industry, as we saw earlier wi…

I think your friend isn't the biggest brain to have drained out of Canada considering the inaccuracies in your post. Hint if Canada "lost the war of 1812", why isn't it a"proper US state"? Did Canada fight a war to join the US in your mind?

Re: A new grad SDE makes 2x more in SF than Toronto after tax and COL

#44

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 4:03 PM UTC

whack wrote: post #40

chrisseaton wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought you said that there was a brain-drain problem that people wanted to fix? If you are getting people that as as talented as you need at prices you want to pay then there's no brain-drain problem is there? But you also said the companies just didn't do as well as the US companies. Maybe with better pay you could attract better people to help fix that. I mean you're the one who said that there was a problem - t…

If you look at most successful companies, high-cash-compensation comes after the company has become successful enough to afford it, not the other way around. Back when Facebook/Google were unestablished startups, their cash compensation wasn't anything to brag about.

[deleted]

Re: A new grad SDE makes 2x more in SF than Toronto after tax and COL

#45

Post by nasalgoat » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 4:31 PM UTC

piva00 wrote: post #33

ttul wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vancouver tech CEO here. We Canadian CEOs would love to pay our staff more, but our companies frankly suck compared to the powerhouse companies in the US. We just aren’t profitable enough. I think if you dig around, you will find that US tech companies are far better funded and thus working on things that generate more upside - for everyone. Another thing to consider is that there is a massive bull market going on. A…

How is the investors' risk mentality over there in Canada? I don't think the problem is profitability but simply money: US startups/companies have easier access to money as investors are willing to take more risks. I see the same effect here in Europe, companies have to run more "tightly" and carefully because money is not easy to come, not many will have a deep line of credit if their companies' life depend on money…

We had to go to the US to get funding, and even then it's not an equity investment, instead it's convertible.

Canadians are simply risk-adverse, or are more comfortable with oil and gas or basic financial services.

Re: A new grad SDE makes 2x more in SF than Toronto after tax and COL

#46

Post by apercu » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 8:47 PM UTC

apercu wrote: post #41

I have mixed feelings when I see these posts. There are a lot of places that pay a lot less than SV, even comparable cities in the US. I don;t have an advanced degree, heck, I don't even have a STEM degree, but when I left my last Toronto job nearly 4 years ago my compensation was around ~200k. Does that mean that if I was willing to a) work for someone and b) move to SV that I would be making 300-400k per year? Mayb…

> British class thing going where there is the elite (capital) and the commoners (labour). Except that it's purely financial (mostly) these days. Nowhere near as bad as, say, the Bahamas.

I meant to type "Bermuda" not "Bahamas"

Re: A new grad SDE makes 2x more in SF than Toronto after tax and COL

#47

Post by namlem » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 6:03 AM UTC

Aside from the weather, Toronto is a much nicer city than SF. Also, the COL analysis fails to account for the value of public services, which is presumably greater in Canada. Probably not nearly enough to make up the difference, but it's something to consider.

Re: A new grad SDE makes 2x more in SF than Toronto after tax and COL

#48

Post by thirdsun » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 8:23 AM UTC

pmiller2 wrote: post #20

andrew_wc_brown wrote: post #13

Its quite frustrating as a Canadian web-developer. There are plenty of remote jobs that I would qualify skill and experience wise in the US that are for 120K USD. But they won't hire remote Canadians because its a hassle for some reason. There are few Canadian companies that are remoting and generally they cap out at 70K. There are higher paying remoting jobs in Canada but to get them you have to do in-person network…

The flip side of this is an experience I had a while ago interviewing with a Canadian company for a remote position. Since I expected it to be an issue, I was up front with the interviewer that I needed a minimum of $X to pay my bills in the Bay Area and that I wasn't interested in moving. They were not willing to proceed, and told me that was the reason. I appreciated their candor, but it really turned me (as an Ame…

Isn't that kind of expected? I assume very few companies can provide the salary that is needed to support living in the bay area and I guess most of them are probably located in the very same region, the bay area.