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A new grad SDE makes 2x more in SF than Toronto after tax and COL

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Re: A new grad SDE makes 2x more in SF than Toronto after tax and COL

#31

Post by linguist_1 »

I had a Canadian colleague of mine describe it as the "1812 tax", basically the "tax" Canada pays for losing the 1812 war and failing to become a proper US state. Everything is more expensive, and the second grade currency doesn't shield them from price variations since the country is too small not to import most goods from the US. Not only that, but a single tariff can wipe out a whole industry, as we saw earlier with the bailout from Airbus.

The situation is made worse with a out of control immigration, with 10x the number of migrants as compared to the United States, that all pretty much target urban areas in BC and Toronto. From what he told me, for IT folks it's mostly guys that wouldn't be good enough for a work visa here in the US.

This, with all the best university grads getting poached by tech companies here in the valley creates a big surplus of average/low skilled tech workers. I mean, it's fine. It's just that these guys aren't playing in the 120-200k range for top dev talent, more like in the 50k range for average workers.

Re: A new grad SDE makes 2x more in SF than Toronto after tax and COL

#32

Post by whack »

tensor wrote: post #7
HanayamaTriplet wrote: post #6

I find it an odd choice to single out SF for the title (currently "A new grad SDE makes 2x more in SF than Toronto after tax and COL"), given that the data show that Seattle pay after tax and COL is almost 2.4x Toronto.

That's not true, total compensation in the article is ~1.7 more in SF than Toronto, but that includes stock options which are not actually the same as cash. The 2x figure comes from an analysis that factors in living expenses and refers to the amount of money you get left over for savings and similar things. Also, that comparison oddly compares living in a frat-like house in SF to having your own one bedroom apartmen…

"that comparison oddly compares living in a frat-like house in SF to having your own one bedroom apartment in Toronto."

1. His Excel sheet shows cost of living with 2-3 roommates, across many different cities, including Toronto

2. The frat parties you attended must have really sucked if they were held in 3-bedroom apartments

Re: A new grad SDE makes 2x more in SF than Toronto after tax and COL

#33

Post by piva00 »

ttul wrote: post #27
guiomie wrote: post #10

The author says in the middle of the post: " I believe this is the key in retaining young Canadian tech talent in Canada. If an intern has a great experience at a Canadian tech company, they are more likely to sacrifice the additional compensation in US to remain in Canada. Sell them on the culture, not the money." And then says: " Tech CEOs in Canada often complain about the brain drain issue, but only a few compani…

Vancouver tech CEO here. We Canadian CEOs would love to pay our staff more, but our companies frankly suck compared to the powerhouse companies in the US. We just aren’t profitable enough. I think if you dig around, you will find that US tech companies are far better funded and thus working on things that generate more upside - for everyone. Another thing to consider is that there is a massive bull market going on. A…

How is the investors' risk mentality over there in Canada? I don't think the problem is profitability but simply money: US startups/companies have easier access to money as investors are willing to take more risks.

I see the same effect here in Europe, companies have to run more "tightly" and carefully because money is not easy to come, not many will have a deep line of credit if their companies' life depend on money, getting new rounds of investment is expensive so you have to do with the money you have now and the little revenue you are getting.

Re: A new grad SDE makes 2x more in SF than Toronto after tax and COL

#34

Post by bartedinburgh »

geodel wrote: post #9

Well this is case with every country which is not US. Software salaries are much higher in US even after considering all different parameters e.g. PPP, currency exchange, housing cost, health insurance and so on.

Yeah, most of Europe is barely on par with Canada if not worse.

Re: A new grad SDE makes 2x more in SF than Toronto after tax and COL

#36

Post by chrisseaton »

ttul wrote: post #27
guiomie wrote: post #10

The author says in the middle of the post: " I believe this is the key in retaining young Canadian tech talent in Canada. If an intern has a great experience at a Canadian tech company, they are more likely to sacrifice the additional compensation in US to remain in Canada. Sell them on the culture, not the money." And then says: " Tech CEOs in Canada often complain about the brain drain issue, but only a few compani…

Vancouver tech CEO here. We Canadian CEOs would love to pay our staff more, but our companies frankly suck compared to the powerhouse companies in the US. We just aren’t profitable enough. I think if you dig around, you will find that US tech companies are far better funded and thus working on things that generate more upside - for everyone. Another thing to consider is that there is a massive bull market going on. A…

But maybe if you paid more, you'd reduce the brain drain, and then maybe you'd be able to do better work and be more profitable? Paying more is an investment.

Re: A new grad SDE makes 2x more in SF than Toronto after tax and COL

#37

Post by ttul »

piva00 wrote: post #33
ttul wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vancouver tech CEO here. We Canadian CEOs would love to pay our staff more, but our companies frankly suck compared to the powerhouse companies in the US. We just aren’t profitable enough. I think if you dig around, you will find that US tech companies are far better funded and thus working on things that generate more upside - for everyone. Another thing to consider is that there is a massive bull market going on. A…

How is the investors' risk mentality over there in Canada? I don't think the problem is profitability but simply money: US startups/companies have easier access to money as investors are willing to take more risks. I see the same effect here in Europe, companies have to run more "tightly" and carefully because money is not easy to come, not many will have a deep line of credit if their companies' life depend on money…

There is way less risk tolerance in Canada. But more crucially, government policy does not reward risk taking so favorably, and a heavy presence of government in the funding of tech through a generous tax credit crowds out private investment.

All this being said, I think it’s even more significant that tech investment and talent is concentrated on the Bay Area, and to a more corporate extent on Seattle with Amazon and Microsoft.

Also, Canadian companies and employees whine too much. My attitude is: if you think you’d be better off in the US, it’s easy to just move there. You will earn more, and your company will be exposed to more funding AND much hotter competition for talent. So you’d better have a really amazing idea.

Re: A new grad SDE makes 2x more in SF than Toronto after tax and COL

#38

Post by ttul »

chrisseaton wrote: post #36
ttul wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vancouver tech CEO here. We Canadian CEOs would love to pay our staff more, but our companies frankly suck compared to the powerhouse companies in the US. We just aren’t profitable enough. I think if you dig around, you will find that US tech companies are far better funded and thus working on things that generate more upside - for everyone. Another thing to consider is that there is a massive bull market going on. A…

But maybe if you paid more, you'd reduce the brain drain, and then maybe you'd be able to do better work and be more profitable? Paying more is an investment.

That’s possible, but why would I pay more when I can get great people at the market rate here? I mean, I work with really great people from all over the world.

Re: A new grad SDE makes 2x more in SF than Toronto after tax and COL

#39

Post by chrisseaton »

ttul wrote: post #38
chrisseaton wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But maybe if you paid more, you'd reduce the brain drain, and then maybe you'd be able to do better work and be more profitable? Paying more is an investment.

That’s possible, but why would I pay more when I can get great people at the market rate here? I mean, I work with really great people from all over the world.

I thought you said that there was a brain-drain problem that people wanted to fix? If you are getting people that as as talented as you need at prices you want to pay then there's no brain-drain problem is there?

But you also said the companies just didn't do as well as the US companies. Maybe with better pay you could attract better people to help fix that.

I mean you're the one who said that there was a problem - the companies don't make enough money. That's why'd you want to pay more.

Re: A new grad SDE makes 2x more in SF than Toronto after tax and COL

#40

Post by whack »

chrisseaton wrote: post #39
ttul wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s possible, but why would I pay more when I can get great people at the market rate here? I mean, I work with really great people from all over the world.

I thought you said that there was a brain-drain problem that people wanted to fix? If you are getting people that as as talented as you need at prices you want to pay then there's no brain-drain problem is there? But you also said the companies just didn't do as well as the US companies. Maybe with better pay you could attract better people to help fix that. I mean you're the one who said that there was a problem - t…

If you look at most successful companies, high-cash-compensation comes after the company has become successful enough to afford it, not the other way around. Back when Facebook/Google were unestablished startups, their cash compensation wasn't anything to brag about.
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