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Mozilla Files Suit Against FCC to Protect Net Neutrality

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Re: Mozilla Files Suit Against FCC to Protect Net Neutrality

#51

Post by stcredzero »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #31
lr4444lr wrote: post #24

Am I the only person who thinks this whole approach to Net Neutrality is wrongly pursued through the FCC? Hear me out: if the networks don't access a physically limited resource like the RF spectrum and there isn't any censorship issue at stake, if the issue is truly differential access and usage due to oligopolistic limitation, isn't it for the FTC to intervene and bust up throttling and content blocks under restrai…

This can only be fixed by the FTC, yes. But it's against Google's interests for antitrust law to come back into vogue, so they've put a lot of money into getting folks on board with the FCC, which doesn't have jurisdiction over Google, being in charge. In fact, the Title II classification that net neutrality supporters are so big on actually exempts ISPs from FTC regulation, preventing the government from breaking up…

This can only be fixed by the FTC, yes. But it's against Google's interests for antitrust law to come back into vogue, so they've put a lot of money into getting folks on board with the FCC, which doesn't have jurisdiction over Google, being in charge.

In other words: Protecting Net Neutrality through the FCC is not politically stable. We have clear proof of that. Google just wants that because it's protecting its own interests over that of the public at large.

"Don't be evil." -- Apparently that doesn't include self interest to the detriment of the public.

Re: Mozilla Files Suit Against FCC to Protect Net Neutrality

#52

Post by zo1 »

msla wrote: post #4
urda wrote: post #2

Mozilla is one of the few groups on the internet I'm proud to support. Keep up the good fight!

I supported them until the adware incident.

I supported until they started redirecting funds to some Social activism communities masquerading as "open source" projects.

Re: Mozilla Files Suit Against FCC to Protect Net Neutrality

#53

Post by ekianjo »

drawkbox wrote: post #37
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This can only be fixed by the FTC, yes. But it's against Google's interests for antitrust law to come back into vogue, so they've put a lot of money into getting folks on board with the FCC, which doesn't have jurisdiction over Google, being in charge. In fact, the Title II classification that net neutrality supporters are so big on actually exempts ISPs from FTC regulation, preventing the government from breaking up…

> We should be breaking up monopolies and fining companies for unfair business practices . Ultimately in a perfect world if the agencies did as their mission statements said that would work. Monopolies need to be broken up and it can lead to good things, even just threatening Microsoft in the 90s led to Google, Apple, etc emergence. The problem is there has been zero sign that anyone is willing to go after monopolies…

> Monopolies need to be broken up and it can lead to good things, even just threatening Microsoft in the 90s led to Google, Apple, etc emergence.

Google and Apple creating their own monopoly-like business in turn (locking you in their walled gardens as much as then can). It certainly looks like a pattern, with consumers not having much of a choice in the end.

Re: Mozilla Files Suit Against FCC to Protect Net Neutrality

#54

Post by wvenable »

davidp wrote: post #43
lr4444lr wrote: post #24

Am I the only person who thinks this whole approach to Net Neutrality is wrongly pursued through the FCC? Hear me out: if the networks don't access a physically limited resource like the RF spectrum and there isn't any censorship issue at stake, if the issue is truly differential access and usage due to oligopolistic limitation, isn't it for the FTC to intervene and bust up throttling and content blocks under restrai…

This is the problem that a lot of people have with the FCC regulatory approach, specifically abusing Article 2 of the 1996 communications act. Net neutrality is essential for the internet to continue to thrive and flourish as it has done since 1996. But using Article 2 for that purpose is like using a sledgehammer on a finishing nail. Article 2 was aimed at the true AT&T telecom behemoths of the world. But it is not…

> But using Article 2 for that purpose is like using a sledgehammer on a finishing nail.

Is it? I don't think it's unreasonable at all to define, what is often the only ISP in a whole region, as a common carrier. It's practically the definition.

> Article 2 was aimed at the true AT&T telecom behemoths of the world.

And here we are with new telecom behemoths!

Commissions like the FCC and FTC exist to create regulations so that Congress is not writing hundreds to thousands of laws at a level of detail that they cannot handle. You might correct that Congress can act in this matter I'm not sure it's inappropriate for the FCC to do so.

Re: Mozilla Files Suit Against FCC to Protect Net Neutrality

#55

Post by drawkbox »

ekianjo wrote: post #53
drawkbox wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should be breaking up monopolies and fining companies for unfair business practices . Ultimately in a perfect world if the agencies did as their mission statements said that would work. Monopolies need to be broken up and it can lead to good things, even just threatening Microsoft in the 90s led to Google, Apple, etc emergence. The problem is there has been zero sign that anyone is willing to go after monopolies…

> Monopolies need to be broken up and it can lead to good things, even just threatening Microsoft in the 90s led to Google, Apple, etc emergence. Google and Apple creating their own monopoly-like business in turn (locking you in their walled gardens as much as then can). It certainly looks like a pattern, with consumers not having much of a choice in the end.

> Google and Apple creating their own monopoly-like business in turn (locking you in their walled gardens as much as then can). It certainly looks like a pattern, with consumers not having much of a choice in the end.

Agreed but you can still choose those, you can't really choose your local ISP now they want to inspect packets, control which ones they slow down and have access to all your private data to sell. They lobbied for that and Google/Apple made innovative products to get you to come onboard and willingly give that away. I prefer at least my monopolies to get their market share by providing products people want and love.

The only major problem with capitalism is monopolies/big fish controlling everyone else.

There indeed has been a real failure to break up monopolies, especially ISP monopolies that control access to the internet.

You can still choose away from Google/Apple but there should eventually be breakups if competitors do not surface and Google keeps pulling stuff like AMP and Apple with ebook pricing manipulation and other areas. But net neutrality isn't about Google/Apple winning, they will win if NN is under FCC or FTC, it is about ISPs and them slowing competitors down because they have the levers.

Re: Mozilla Files Suit Against FCC to Protect Net Neutrality

#56

Post by drawkbox »

exabrial wrote: post #42

This is an unpopular opinion, but the disagreement point is trying to use the FCC to enforce Net Neutrality, not Net Neutrality itself. Since everyone has decided to stop talking about the end goal (an open internet) and instead insisting "my way or the highway", we've gotten ourselves to this point. Thank you for your downvotes. I'd rather talk about working together towards an end goal and finding similarities inst…

FTC probably can't enforce net neutrality, this came from one of their commissioners [1]:

> The Federal Trade Commission will not be able to fill the gap created by the FCC’s abdication of its authority and sector-specific mandate. After-the-fact antitrust and consumer protection enforcement by the FTC cannot substitute for clear upfront rules, especially given that vertically integrated broadband ISPs have both the incentive and ability to favor their own content or that of paid “partners” over the content of rivals.

Only thing the FTC can do is after the damage fines, which will be underwhelming. Rules/law needs to stop ISPs upfront, this is why they want it away from the FCC and on the FTC. ISPs would rather win in the marketplace, get their monopolies cutting out competition, then pay a fine rather than innovating to compete. Upfront rules about net neutrality are needed to help create the next Google/Apple/Netflix/Facebook that would be crushed without it.

[1] https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/public_statements...

Re: Mozilla Files Suit Against FCC to Protect Net Neutrality

#57

Post by zhjansbnas »

drawkbox wrote: post #41
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is a global monopoly with it's hands in literally everything. A significant percentage of all inter-human communication, whether voice, internet, email, or messaging goes through Google. Possibly a majority. Regional/local monopolies are barely a concern worth mention in comparison. It's as if you're worried about the street dealer, and not worried about the head of the cartel.

Check again, Google isn't the one most people are worried about. They are worried about Comcast, Cox, AT&T and the like that own ISPs/broadband, content and control your privacy on every site you go to with the ISP privacy bill they put through, which they moved to the FTC from the FCC so they could control it better. You don't have to go to Google, you are stuck with your ISP and the other fake competitive ISP that…

I found it pretty easy to switch ISPs, but it would be pretty hard for me to quit Google. Nobody expects my IP address to be static, and that’s the only thing I lose when I switch. I get that some people can’t switch.

The ISPs suck, they are the most hated companies in the world and all. The suckage takes the form of “they don’t show up for the appointment on time” or “they raised my bill by $20” which produces a lot of negative sentiment in the average consumer.

Google and Facebook, by contrast, make money from selling attention, and their business depends on having good consumer sentiments. Turns out it’s a very lucrative business. ISPs want a taste of those tens of billions so they want a troll toll from Facebook and Google. They don’t care about some startups with no money.

This whole net neutrality thing is only such a big political issue because of the lobbying of the internet giants, who can take advantage of their positive brand sentiment to fight against the telecoms who are trying to get a piece of the action. If you think it’s about freedom of information or something, check out Facebook’s stance on net neutrality in India. Silicon Valley lost this round because someone who isn’t in their ring won the election. For the sake of our profession’s prevailing wage, let’s hope it goes the other way next time.

Re: Mozilla Files Suit Against FCC to Protect Net Neutrality

#58

Post by qaq »

drawkbox wrote: post #37
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This can only be fixed by the FTC, yes. But it's against Google's interests for antitrust law to come back into vogue, so they've put a lot of money into getting folks on board with the FCC, which doesn't have jurisdiction over Google, being in charge. In fact, the Title II classification that net neutrality supporters are so big on actually exempts ISPs from FTC regulation, preventing the government from breaking up…

> We should be breaking up monopolies and fining companies for unfair business practices . Ultimately in a perfect world if the agencies did as their mission statements said that would work. Monopolies need to be broken up and it can lead to good things, even just threatening Microsoft in the 90s led to Google, Apple, etc emergence. The problem is there has been zero sign that anyone is willing to go after monopolies…

I think it's highly market specific. Moving to NoVa from MI I have now like 5 ISP options with very competitive pricing and variety of high speed option including Comcast Xfinity 2000 Mbps, Verizon FIOS etc.

Re: Mozilla Files Suit Against FCC to Protect Net Neutrality

#59

Post by [deleted] »

exabrial wrote: post #42

This is an unpopular opinion, but the disagreement point is trying to use the FCC to enforce Net Neutrality, not Net Neutrality itself. Since everyone has decided to stop talking about the end goal (an open internet) and instead insisting "my way or the highway", we've gotten ourselves to this point. Thank you for your downvotes. I'd rather talk about working together towards an end goal and finding similarities inst…

[deleted]

Re: Mozilla Files Suit Against FCC to Protect Net Neutrality

#60

Post by drawkbox »

zhjansbnas wrote: post #57
drawkbox wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check again, Google isn't the one most people are worried about. They are worried about Comcast, Cox, AT&T and the like that own ISPs/broadband, content and control your privacy on every site you go to with the ISP privacy bill they put through, which they moved to the FTC from the FCC so they could control it better. You don't have to go to Google, you are stuck with your ISP and the other fake competitive ISP that…

I found it pretty easy to switch ISPs, but it would be pretty hard for me to quit Google. Nobody expects my IP address to be static, and that’s the only thing I lose when I switch. I get that some people can’t switch. The ISPs suck, they are the most hated companies in the world and all. The suckage takes the form of “they don’t show up for the appointment on time” or “they raised my bill by $20” which produces a lot…

Hello new user.

> The suckage takes the form of “they don’t show up for the appointment on time” or “they raised my bill by $20” which produces a lot of negative sentiment in the average consumer.

No the suckage comes from only one in many, many areas[1][2]. Data caps, charges on data caps, slow speeds, lack of competition after Google Fiber left many markets due to ISP thuggery. They also dislike the ISP privacy protections being removed and them now able to sell all your data. Say what you want about Google/Facebook but they innovated to get people to share their personal data, they didn't need to bribe congress to further their monopoly.

The vast majority US only has 0 or 1 valid ISP(s) with decent speeds if that at 25-100 Mbps[1][2].

> This whole net neutrality thing is only such a big political issue because of the lobbying of the internet giants

Comcast was throttling Netflix in 2015, they will throttle smaller players without abandon. Netflix had to create fast.com to test speeds because even the speed tests on ISP sites were fixed to report higher than they were to hide the nerfing of Netflix.

ISPs are much more of a threat to open internet than Google, Facebook or any company that has innovated on top of the internet in the market, not trying to control your entry point to the market by bribing Congress.

Nobody HAS to go to Google or Facebook, they HAVE TO use their ISP. They are the threat to open internet not the other way around. This shifting to companies that earned their position in the open market is strongly anti-business in favor of companies that pay off lawmakers.

[1] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/08/us-br...

[2] https://consumerist.com/2014/03/07/heres-what-lack-of-broadb...

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