Goldman Sachs Report Explores Use of Bitcoin as Currency • Hacker News Board

Re: Goldman Sachs Report Explores Use of Bitcoin as Currency

#201

Post by lazerpants » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 8:07 PM UTC

paulmd wrote: post #120

aaron-lebo wrote: post #2

More than a little disturbing. They talk about helping developing economies, but what you can bet this means is that they'll be screwing over those people some way or another. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman_Sachs#2007%E2%80%93200... http://fortune.com/2016/04/11/goldman-sachs-doj-settlement/ This is the end game of cryptocurrencies; not worldwide financial liberation but the same massive financial institutions…

The problem in hyperinflationary situations isn't lack of access to hard currency, it is usually readily available on the black market. The problem is the lack of affordability of hard currency. How many US dollars do I get for this piece of hyperinflating funny money? Probably not many. Bitcoin is really no different from transacting in US dollars or any other hard currency, in fact it's arguably worse in pretty muc…

Umm... You do know that Zimbabwe has used the USD and South African Rand as its currencies since 2009, right? They abandoned the Zimbabwean dollar due to hyperinflation. All I've ever seen there is USD.

Re: Goldman Sachs Report Explores Use of Bitcoin as Currency

#202

Post by 0wing » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 8:18 PM UTC

keymone wrote: post #168

0wing wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please explain how the Lightning Network developers solve an unsolved NP-Hard problem in computer science regarding routing? [1] The Lightning Network design is exactly what the first sentence of Satoshi's Bitcoin whitepaper seeks to avoid - payment processor middlemen. "A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a f…

seems like you've heard the term and quickly decided that it describes something unsolvable in principle. the truth is, that NP-hardness is only true for perfect solution in polynomial time. good-enough solutions can be found in finite time intervals just fine, there are plenty of practical implementations of that. ever heard of this thing called "delivery companies"? well they solve TSP sub-optimally millions of tim…

Right... except the internet is not a physical space so tell me how do you measure distance between nodes?

Latency?

Let's look at the Lightening network white paper:

  8.4 Payment Routing

  It is theoretically possible to build a route map 
  implicitly from observing 2-of-2 multisigs on the 
  blockchain to build a routing table. Note, however, this 
  is not feasible with pay-to-script-hash transaction 
  outputs, which can be resolved out-of-band from the 
  bitcoin protocol via a third party routing service. 
  Building a routing table will become necessary for large 
  operators (e.g. BGP, Cjdns). Eventually, with 
  optimizations, the network will look a lot like the 
  correspondent banking network, or Tier-1 ISPs.

So LN cites the need for large liquidity providers to act as hubs, essentially payment processor hubs.

Why not just use venmo at that point?

Why would someone want to use Bitcoin with the LN, especially if it requires them buying Bitcoin from someone else?

Re: Goldman Sachs Report Explores Use of Bitcoin as Currency

#203

Post by 0wing » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 8:24 PM UTC

whataretensors wrote: post #108

0wing wrote: post #12

Bitcoin and blockchain systems are nearly all designed to exploit new users and extract capital from greater fools who are too late to the game and didn't read or understand the rules and fine print. Satoshi's Bitcoin and many of the crypto-currencies that have followed create and distribute the supply that effectively creates a decentralized pyramid-ponzi scheme. Semantically, a more accurate term is needed; Bitcoin…

1. Early bitcoin users shoulder more risk than later users. They are rewarded for pushing the blockchain forward. You could argue disproportionately, but the rules are set in stone from the beginning. 3. There are other coins that do not require asics or have as high of energy cost. 5. What exactly is a government going to do? They could perhaps take control of the chain? The cost would be enormous. They could attemp…

1. The Bitcoin algorithm gave early Bitcoin miners much more of the supply for measurably less work/capital costs. Satoshi designed the supply to go almost entirely to early adopters. Just as easy the algorithm could have been designed to match work input with reward output, but instead all later users must work harder to earn less.

5. Ban exchanges, make sales/purchase illegal like how localbitcoin dealers being arrested for money transmission violations.

Re: Goldman Sachs Report Explores Use of Bitcoin as Currency

#204

Post by ThomPete » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 9:08 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #197

ThomPete wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US dollar is supported by a government (or more precisely a central bank) just like Greece and Venezuela is. But who supports the government? A government can default. The USD can default. It is only in very recent times that currencies have been stable (at the cost of having to grow the economy to beat the inflation) historically they haven't. Just ask the Germans in the 30ies. It's an illusion to think that just be…

I didn't say it's exempt from losing value, however we have some fairly good means of trying to ensure that doesn't happen, which have been relatively successful of late. With Cryptocurrencies there are none, by design. >> Bitcoin has more utility than a clone because it has a unique history and a unique set of backers (the network) and those backers have exactly the same function as they state. This is utter nonsens…

No it's not nonsense at all. A country can default no matter the intentions and attempts of it's government.

There is always a reality. That same reality plays out differently with bitcoin compared to the USD but fundamentally there is no absolute base for either currency nor bitcoin. And history is littered with examples of this.

Re: Goldman Sachs Report Explores Use of Bitcoin as Currency

#205

Post by keymone » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 9:29 PM UTC

0wing wrote: post #202

keymone wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

seems like you've heard the term and quickly decided that it describes something unsolvable in principle. the truth is, that NP-hardness is only true for perfect solution in polynomial time. good-enough solutions can be found in finite time intervals just fine, there are plenty of practical implementations of that. ever heard of this thing called "delivery companies"? well they solve TSP sub-optimally millions of tim…

Right... except the internet is not a physical space so tell me how do you measure distance between nodes? Latency? Let's look at the Lightening network white paper: 8.4 Payment Routing It is theoretically possible to build a route map implicitly from observing 2-of-2 multisigs on the blockchain to build a routing table. Note, however, this is not feasible with pay-to-script-hash transaction outputs, which can be res…

Unsurprisingly your reply has nothing to do with your original speculation that LN can’t work because of TSP.

Re: Goldman Sachs Report Explores Use of Bitcoin as Currency

#206

Post by 0wing » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 10:00 PM UTC

keymone wrote: post #205

0wing wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right... except the internet is not a physical space so tell me how do you measure distance between nodes? Latency? Let's look at the Lightening network white paper: 8.4 Payment Routing It is theoretically possible to build a route map implicitly from observing 2-of-2 multisigs on the blockchain to build a routing table. Note, however, this is not feasible with pay-to-script-hash transaction outputs, which can be res…

Unsurprisingly your reply has nothing to do with your original speculation that LN can’t work because of TSP.

???

The routing problem of internet nodes:

  the internet is not a physical space so tell me how do you
  measure distance between nodes?

To which you have no answer.

As stated in the OP:

  LN can't solve the TSP without either publishing a map of 
  all nodes and routes, or having all nodes broadcasts to all nodes.

Unsurprisingly you didn't read the original post, nor contribute any response to the critique or technical implementation of routing in the LN design.

LN relies on hubs and a map. It's setup to extract wealth into centralized liquidity providers. This is antithetical to cash, and at this point why not use a faster centralized service like venmo?

Re: Goldman Sachs Report Explores Use of Bitcoin as Currency

#207

Post by root_axis » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 10:00 PM UTC

hanselot wrote: post #154

root_axis wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. It also requires considerable levels of technical literacy to use, maintain, and properly secure blockchain tokens, and even with all that people regularly have their bitcoins stolen or irreparably lost.

I love how Fiat Money was designed to be impossible to use for illegal purposes, and there is no way to steal it. I mean really, if there were a way for it to be used in that way, surely your argument would be pointless, but luckily we know that the more middlemen we introduce between us and another party, the more affordable the transaction will become.

> I love how Fiat Money was designed to be impossible to use for illegal purposes, and there is no way to steal it.

So, I catch the meaning behind your sarcastic quip, but all you're doing here is offering up an absurd strawman. Obviously any currency can be stolen or used for illegal purposes, that's a willfully disingenuous interpretation of the argument because nobody has ever said that. This kind of reasoning would be like if someone said "the nature of dynamic typing makes the code prone to error" and you respond with "I love how strong static types were designed to make bugs impossible to produce, and there is no way it will cause the program to crash unexpectedly".

Re: Goldman Sachs Report Explores Use of Bitcoin as Currency

#208

Post by keymone » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 11:29 PM UTC

0wing wrote: post #206

keymone wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unsurprisingly your reply has nothing to do with your original speculation that LN can’t work because of TSP.

??? The routing problem of internet nodes: the internet is not a physical space so tell me how do you measure distance between nodes? To which you have no answer. As stated in the OP: LN can't solve the TSP without either publishing a map of all nodes and routes, or having all nodes broadcasts to all nodes. Unsurprisingly you didn't read the original post, nor contribute any response to the critique or technical impl…

> the internet is not a physical space so tell me how do you measure distance between nodes?

You’re the one that claimed connection to TSP, you tell me.

Re: Goldman Sachs Report Explores Use of Bitcoin as Currency

#209

Post by Nursie » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 12:03 AM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #204

Nursie wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say it's exempt from losing value, however we have some fairly good means of trying to ensure that doesn't happen, which have been relatively successful of late. With Cryptocurrencies there are none, by design. >> Bitcoin has more utility than a clone because it has a unique history and a unique set of backers (the network) and those backers have exactly the same function as they state. This is utter nonsens…

No it's not nonsense at all. A country can default no matter the intentions and attempts of it's government. There is always a reality. That same reality plays out differently with bitcoin compared to the USD but fundamentally there is no absolute base for either currency nor bitcoin. And history is littered with examples of this.

That's not what I called nonsense.

The nonsense part was you saying that the BTC community back the currency like a government. They can't, the currency doesn't work that way.

Re: Goldman Sachs Report Explores Use of Bitcoin as Currency

#210

Post by ThomPete » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 12:18 AM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #209

ThomPete wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not nonsense at all. A country can default no matter the intentions and attempts of it's government. There is always a reality. That same reality plays out differently with bitcoin compared to the USD but fundamentally there is no absolute base for either currency nor bitcoin. And history is littered with examples of this.

That's not what I called nonsense. The nonsense part was you saying that the BTC community back the currency like a government. They can't, the currency doesn't work that way.

In what way are they different besides the trivial differences? Who backs the state?