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Leap: An Online Community for Women

blog.ycombinator.com

221–230 of 364 posts

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#221

Honest question, does HN feel unwelcoming or uncomfortable for women? In particular: “I’ve found that some conversations online escalate to shouting matches quickly” do female HN users identify this with HN? Not saying Leap shouldn’t exist or anything, I’m just wondering if HN has these particular issues that I haven’t personally recognised.

There's a certain style to HN discussions that feels completely natural if you've been here long enough, yet may appear excessively antagonistic to people not used to it.

Specifically, 90%+ of all comments are of the "you're wrong, because..." variety. Note that there's nothing wrong with such comments: they make up a large part of any group's pub conversations as well, for example.

Yet there are other sentiments that are possibly underrepresented on HN: self-doubt, questions, or comments expanding on others' ideas come to mind.

None of these can obviously be categorised as singularity "male" or "female". And there isn't much shouting going on, even metaphorically. Yet it may, from time to time, be a good idea to step back and examine common assumptions,

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#223
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What problem is this intended to solve that isn't solved by moderation policies and forum culture? I think this comment thread is a pretty good illustration of the problem. A group of women are saying, "hey, we think this is a beneficial project, for this reason and this other reason," and a bunch of men are saying "WRONG it's pretty much white supremacy except against men." Forums reflect their membership -- in an…

On the same token, a specifically male only group tends to get crucified. It's more of a confusion of double standards, perceived or otherwise. Sure, most groups end up de-facto male only, but you never see groups actively advertised as male only.

There is a reason for this, and I think you answered it just now.

Men don't need it - in technology and many other industry spaces, we are comfortable voicing our experiences because we know they'll be well-received and affirmed by much of our audience. We're the prevailing voice in the broad group, so we're already being heard.

If you're creating a space for men only, it's either because you're part of another group with a sidelined voice (e.g. gay men) or because you have Damore-esque ideas about the world and really do want to be exclusive.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gender discrimination is obviously not illegal. How do you think rec sports leagues or support groups work?

Gender is a protected class, so "it's (not) illegal" in either direction is a bit of a blanket statement. So let me try and be more precise. In some states, AFAIK the "women-only gym" is allowed, but in others it isn't. The point, if I remember correctly, is "exercise requires such compromising clothes and positions, that the right to personal privacy trumps the right to not be discriminated based on gender". And eve…

me too, i'd hate to think this precedent would allow the creation of men only forums

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#225

Honest question, does HN feel unwelcoming or uncomfortable for women? In particular: “I’ve found that some conversations online escalate to shouting matches quickly” do female HN users identify this with HN? Not saying Leap shouldn’t exist or anything, I’m just wondering if HN has these particular issues that I haven’t personally recognised.

Yes. You just need to look as far as this thread.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#226

Honest question, does HN feel unwelcoming or uncomfortable for women? In particular: “I’ve found that some conversations online escalate to shouting matches quickly” do female HN users identify this with HN? Not saying Leap shouldn’t exist or anything, I’m just wondering if HN has these particular issues that I haven’t personally recognised.

There's a certain style to HN discussions that feels completely natural if you've been here long enough, yet may appear excessively antagonistic to people not used to it. Specifically, 90%+ of all comments are of the "you're wrong, because..." variety. Note that there's nothing wrong with such comments: they make up a large part of any group's pub conversations as well, for example. Yet there are other sentiments tha…

I don't think you're being fair to the community here. It's true that such comments exist, and so do many other kinds. Many users share personal experiences. Many express vulnerability. Self-doubt, questions, and comments expanding on others' ideas are highly represented here, and we value them tremendously.

I puzzled for years over why people would say things like "90%+ of all comments" that are so obviously (to me) untrue. But now I think I know why: those kinds of comments stand out more. It is as if they burn a deeper impression into the brain of the reader, usually a more painful one, so one comes to feel like they're "90%+" even when they are not. This perceptual loop is hard to break out of, so I've begun to see it as part of the moderator's job to inject new information when people post like this, in the hope of opening the loop back up. It's important for the community to see the good in itself and not just the bad. Otherwise why bother to take care of it?

HN has problems with disrespect, incivility, aggression, but one must evaluate this from multiple sides. Every large, public, anonymous place on the internet has this problem, usually worse than HN does. The problem is systemic, but that doesn't make it hopeless, it just makes improvement slow.

Every HN reader I've met has a love-hate relationship with the site. There's something deep in that, and a lot to say about it, but here's one that gets back to the topic of this thread. In my opinion, the aggressive dynamics of open internet argumentation relate to the gender dynamics of what tends to make women feel more or less welcome in a place. An atmosphere of hostility—or anything above a certain toxic baseline—causes many people to want nothing to do with a place or to feel deep ambivalence about it. I have that reaction myself, and my sense is that women tend to have it more than men do. This is what came to my mind when Cadran wrote that she started Leap because she doesn't feel welcome in "shouting matches".

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#227
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genetics could explain the disparity without resorting to a "women are inferior" conclusion. For example, it's possible that the ability distribution is more varied for men than for women such that if you sample from either extreme, you'll find more men, and if you sample from the middle, you'll find more women. Employers obviously prefer to sample programmers and leaders from the high-ability extreme, and therefore…

This isn't Lake Wobegon. Not all the children are above average. You can cut this cake a different way, too... race. White people are overrepresented (or non-whites are underrepresented) in IT, and in high-status jobs. And the male/female representation ratios are different, as well. Consider historic example, as well. Right now, women are significantly underrepresented as CEOs and senators. But a century ago, there…

> Not all the children are above average.

They don't have to be. Only the majority, and I have a hard time believing that the majority of software engineers and leaders are of average capability or worse. I'm open to data to the contrary, however.

> You can cut this cake a different way, too... race. White people are overrepresented (or non-whites are underrepresented) in IT, and in high-status jobs.

Not sure what your point is here. Are you implying that because there are racial disparities as well, then both gender and racial disparities must have a common cause? That's obviously fallacious, but I don't know what else to make of this.

> Right now, women are significantly underrepresented as CEOs and senators. But a century ago, there were no women CEOs or senators. Are women less genetically inclined to their "proper" path as homemakers now than they were a century ago?

No. I made no claims about the cause of disparities a century ago.

> At a certain point, I start cutting the cake with Occam's Razor.

Good. Then let's hold off on the elaborate conspiracy theories until we can invalidate the simpler explanations, eh?

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#228
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gender is a protected class, so "it's (not) illegal" in either direction is a bit of a blanket statement. So let me try and be more precise. In some states, AFAIK the "women-only gym" is allowed, but in others it isn't. The point, if I remember correctly, is "exercise requires such compromising clothes and positions, that the right to personal privacy trumps the right to not be discriminated based on gender". And eve…

me too, i'd hate to think this precedent would allow the creation of men only forums

You are already welcome to create a man-only forum.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#229
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like you have a community that you want to exist, and that you have a vision for. Is there anything preventing you from going out and making it?

> Sounds like you have a community that you want to exist, and that you have a vision for I do, that's why I asked the question.

Great! Are you working on making it exist?

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#230

Honest question, does HN feel unwelcoming or uncomfortable for women? In particular: “I’ve found that some conversations online escalate to shouting matches quickly” do female HN users identify this with HN? Not saying Leap shouldn’t exist or anything, I’m just wondering if HN has these particular issues that I haven’t personally recognised.

There's a certain style to HN discussions that feels completely natural if you've been here long enough, yet may appear excessively antagonistic to people not used to it. Specifically, 90%+ of all comments are of the "you're wrong, because..." variety. Note that there's nothing wrong with such comments: they make up a large part of any group's pub conversations as well, for example. Yet there are other sentiments tha…

For people who have been socialized to put agreeableness and pleasing people above all else, a community where it's the norm to bluntly challenge others is painfully stacked against you. It almost immediately makes you feel out of place. It can, indeed, feel like people are shouting at one another. When else would the conversation be full of nothing but clear challenge? Why is everyone an asshole?

It happens that the two styles are often categorized as female (agreeableness and pleasing others) and male (bluntly challenging). And indeed, in American society, men and women are in the broadest of terms socialized in those ways.

Personally, I wouldn't trade this norm for the world. I'm much too familiar with the Dale Carnegie crap of wrapping every point in senseless complements and false uncertainty to want to waste more energy on it than required. My own or anyone else's. I recognize that this preference leaves some people feeling uncomfortable. But that's my preference, and I am keenly aware that others may prefer differently approaches.

(EDIT: But read dang's comments instead. They're better than this.)

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