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Leap: An Online Community for Women

blog.ycombinator.com

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Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#191

Post by dang »

totalZero wrote: post #186
dang wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I warned you once in this thread already ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16161338 ), but you've managed to break yet another HN site guideline with this comment, the one that reads as follows: Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Obviously Cadran was talking about making Leap inclusive within the scope of being a forum for w…

It appears to me that sievebrain's criticism lines up with any plausible interpretation of cbcowans' comment. One cannot claim the benefits of inclusion while also excluding half the population, and arguably more than half of tech professionals. That's not to say that there's necessarily anything wrong with exclusion -- it is a fact of life in many ways, and can be fruitful. I am a member of some exclusive clubs and…

Words' meanings aren't absolute, they're relative to context. I bet we could find a dozen examples of that in your comment alone if we looked.

In this case the context is the question. Q: are all who identify as women welcome to join? A: yes, we want to be inclusive of all who identify as women. It's clear what "inclusive" means there, the same way it's clear that "join" doesn't mean sticking things together with carpenter's glue.

It does take a little work to remember that the same word can have two different scopes in the same discussion. Similarly, one might not use the same variable name to mean two different things in the same function. Nevertheless the meaning was reasonably clear and certainly plausible.

The problem is that when a word carries an emotional charge and the topic carries an emotional charge, outer-cortex nuances get flooded by deeper defensive reactions. This happens to all of us. It's one reason why discussions like this need moderation and the moderators need a lot of practice—and a lot of support—in order not to get flooded themselves. I'm dangling by the same thread much of the time, so I have empathy for it, but it's not ok for commenters to let themselves become disrespectful.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#192

Post by grasshopperpurp »

dang wrote: post #188
grasshopperpurp wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I've tried to edit it, but I guess it's locked in.

Hmm it should have been editable but I've done a thing to reopen it that should work. If you edit it I can delete my replies here.

Thank you. I'll try again :)

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#193

Post by konogasa »

I expect this to be a controversial comment. I might just be overreacting.

  If you identify as a woman and are interested in joining Leap, 
  please sign up for our beta here.
I'm a trans woman who works in tech. I think it's dangerous to open a community for women to people who "identify as women". For one thing, there are plenty of women who do not "identify as women". For instance, older women may not really know what "identifying" is all about and just think "well, I'm a woman, what's to identify with?". There are also younger women who reject the idea that gender is an identity that you can choose at will.

Obviously the invitation is meant to show that trans women are welcome. That's... moving, but I think it will only cause trouble. First you create a place especially for women, which is needed because like the announcement says, many women don't feel welcome, comfortable or even safe in online discussions that tend to escalate to shouting matches, typically among men (since it's the women leaving). Then you invite in to the community people who have been socialised as men, have grown up as men, have spent most of their professional lives as men and who have often contributed to exactly the kind of working environment that makes womens' lives difficult as tech workers. That's defeating the whole point of a "community where the core culture [will be] set by women".

I'm not trying to say that trans women are not women (I mean, duh; I'm one. Of both). But it should be kept in mind that most of us carry a great deal of baggage from the time we lived as men. Baggage that's very hard to get rid of and that many of us are not even aware of. In light of this, I think this big-hearted invitation to everyone who identifies as a woman, should be revised to something more cautious. I'd think, if someone "identifies as a woman" and works in technology, they'd respond to an invitation to just "women" anyway.

To be perfectly clear, I'm totally not joining and I invite any other trans women who read this to think very carefully before doing so. Just think of all the times you had a civilised and polite debate with other trans women about trans stuff, or about anything.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#194

Post by iamdave »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #187
iamdave wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is a setting where asking is potentially problematic -- like work This is cultural, no? I mean, I have a personal rule of never dating coworkers, but I have friends elsewhere in the world where this isn't such a strange notion.

I worked at a company where co-workers dated and even married. It wasn't against the rules as long as one did not have power over the other at work. Nonetheless, I was asked for a date by a senior programmer in the department I had been hoping to transfer to. This helped kill my hopes of having a real career at the company and helped me make my peace with just leaving the company shortly thereafter. Some people know…

This helped kill my hopes of having a real career at the company and helped me make my peace with just leaving the company shortly thereafter.

Merely curious, was the working relationship between the two of you already strained/tense? Said another way, were you already planning to depart from the company before the senior programmer asked you out?

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#195

Post by beat »

fvdessen wrote: post #174
beat wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Measurement is easy. Just look around you. The majority of people working in tech are men. An even larger majority of its leadership is men. Why is this? There are only two possible causes that I can see - genetic, or cultural. The genetic argument is basically that men are, by nature, better at being programmers and leaders than women - that women are inferior. The cultural argument is that there is a social advanta…

Could it be that the cultural problem is the low social status of IT Work ?

That seems unlikely, considering that you see similar issues in high-status work, such as business executives or politicians.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#196

Post by adventured »

beat wrote: post #152
fvdessen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The measurable advantage men have in the tech community What is that advantage and how is it measured ?

Measurement is easy. Just look around you. The majority of people working in tech are men. An even larger majority of its leadership is men. Why is this? There are only two possible causes that I can see - genetic, or cultural. The genetic argument is basically that men are, by nature, better at being programmers and leaders than women - that women are inferior. The cultural argument is that there is a social advanta…

So your argument is that men and women are exactly identical on all tasks for genetic purposes? Or are you arguing that such just happens to be the case as it pertains to programming?

From my observation, women are frequently proclaimed to be superior to men in numerous ways. My entire life I've heard that women mature faster than men. Women are proclaimed to be more nurturing. Women have higher 'emotional intelligence.' You'll see it almost universally proclaimed that if women ran the world, conflicts (eg war) would be far less common, this is a constant refrain in the US across all media.

There are very well understood differences between men and women when it comes to things like vision, physical strength, hand-eye coordination, spatial awareness, physical aggression, and so on. We also have many different health risks due to our genetic differences. All of these things add up to women universally living longer from one culture to the next, and women commiting drastically fewer acts of violence (and thus making up a far smaller percentage of the prison population).

If any of that is actually true, why can't men be superior at various tasks due to genetic differences? Why not programming? What I'm asking is: what's the scientific argument to say that men are not superior at programming, how can that be proven either direction? Just saying such is the case (either direction), is not enough.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#197

Post by etjossem »

fvdessen wrote: post #174
beat wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Measurement is easy. Just look around you. The majority of people working in tech are men. An even larger majority of its leadership is men. Why is this? There are only two possible causes that I can see - genetic, or cultural. The genetic argument is basically that men are, by nature, better at being programmers and leaders than women - that women are inferior. The cultural argument is that there is a social advanta…

Could it be that the cultural problem is the low social status of IT Work ?

Lawyers have about the same gender breakdown as computer systems analysts, so I don't think this is the case. CEOs are even more predominantly male, at a fairly shocking 73% by 2016 numbers (we'll have '17 soon).

The problem with tech in particular is that we're often viewed as an inclusive and progressive industry. But when you run the numbers, we're no better than the law firms.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#198

Post by DoreenMichele »

iamdave wrote: post #194
DoreenMichele wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked at a company where co-workers dated and even married. It wasn't against the rules as long as one did not have power over the other at work. Nonetheless, I was asked for a date by a senior programmer in the department I had been hoping to transfer to. This helped kill my hopes of having a real career at the company and helped me make my peace with just leaving the company shortly thereafter. Some people know…

This helped kill my hopes of having a real career at the company and helped me make my peace with just leaving the company shortly thereafter. Merely curious, was the working relationship between the two of you already strained/tense? Said another way, were you already planning to depart from the company before the senior programmer asked you out?

I did not have a working relationship with him. We worked at the same company, but we never worked together. I was already expecting to leave for unrelated reasons.

I have a certificate in GIS. In the 5+ years at that company, he was the only person who knew what GIS was without me having to explain it. It never crossed his mind that I might have IT ambitions or that my technical training might have value for the company. He just saw an attractive woman, and that was it. This helped convince me that the company was simply not fertile ground for a serious career for me.

My department was a pink collar ghetto. I had no desire to remain in an underpaid pink collar job and use the company as a means to marry well. He no doubt made at least 3 to 5 times what I made.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#199

Post by cbcowans »

sukhadatkeereo wrote: post #179
cbcowans wrote: post #2

Hi! I'm the creator of Leap. Glad to answer questions here.

Is there a way to join Leap for people who don't use facebook?

Not yet but I am planning to add other auth mechanisms in the future. If you send me a note at leap at ycombinator dot com I will let you know when I do. Thanks and sorry for that!

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#200

Post by iamdave »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #198
iamdave wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This helped kill my hopes of having a real career at the company and helped me make my peace with just leaving the company shortly thereafter. Merely curious, was the working relationship between the two of you already strained/tense? Said another way, were you already planning to depart from the company before the senior programmer asked you out?

I did not have a working relationship with him. We worked at the same company, but we never worked together. I was already expecting to leave for unrelated reasons. I have a certificate in GIS. In the 5+ years at that company, he was the only person who knew what GIS was without me having to explain it. It never crossed his mind that I might have IT ambitions or that my technical training might have value for the com…

Ah I understand a bit better now, thank you! Interestingly, I am an IT person with GIS ambitions, heh. Good luck to you regardless!
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