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Dropbox Developer Terms and Conditions

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Re: Dropbox Developer Terms and Conditions

#21

Post by TekMol »

QAPereo wrote: post #7

Binding arbitration is societal and legal poison, and must be killed. I strongly encourage everyone in the mean time, to opt out ASAP! Edit: At least you’ll be in court, or part of class action, rather than stuck in their arbitration system! For example they can use it to argue that sending an opt-out mails indicates that you have read the clause. It also indicates that you have read the TOS in general. It also indic…

I would expect that if you send the opt-out mail that will weaken your standing in court. Everything you give the other side makes the other side stronger and gives them more vectors to argue and attack.

For example they can use it to argue that sending an opt-out mails indicates that you have read the clause. It also indicates that you have read the TOS in general. It also indicates that you agreed to the rest of the TOS. Etc etc.

Re: Dropbox Developer Terms and Conditions

#23

Post by vijayr »

brndnmtthws wrote: post #13
stickydink wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very enforceable. You clicked accept, you accepted. If you didn't read it, that's on you. According to the American Bar Association's wording on "Best Practices for Ensuring Enforceability" [0] > There is a check-box that users must click adjacent to an affirmation similar to, “By clicking on the box, you are indicating that you have read and agree to the Terms of Use”; > The webpage is designed so that if the user d…

Seems absurd to me. Companies could claim they put whatever they want in that text and the burden of proof would lie with the end user.

It is beyond absurd. It is a lose-lose situation for end users - if we read each line of every EULA, thats all we would be doing all day. If we don't, then we accept very unfriendly terms.

Here is a funny example:

https://www.geek.com/games/gamestation-eula-collects-7500-so...

Re: Dropbox Developer Terms and Conditions

#24

Post by pktgen »

joering2 wrote: post #20
eganist wrote: post #8

Lawyers willing to opine: > 14.5. NO CLASS ACTIONS. Developer may only resolve disputes with Dropbox on an individual basis and will not bring a claim in a class, consolidated or representative action. Class arbitrations, class actions, private attorney general actions, and consolidation with other arbitrations are not allowed. Is this exact thing what's being considered in some of the more recent Supreme Court cases…

IANAL, but as far as I understand this is grey area and some courts/judges will see something like this differently, because there is a set of rules that courts find irrelevant whether you put them in your terms or not. For example, you can agree to the terms where point 1.2.3 says "you agree that our employee can break into your house in the middle of the night and strangle you to death". The mere explanation "they…

Unfortunately, the GOP Supreme Court has made these arbitration agreements nearly bulletproof. What you've written makes a lot of sense and is how it should be, but judges now have very little leeway in not enforcing arbitration agreements. See AT&T Mobility v. Concepcion (https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-893.pdf) and Amex v. Italian Colors (https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-133_19m1.pdf). (Concepcion in particular originated from a California Supreme Court ruling that these agreements were unconscionable and unenforceable in certain situations.)

Re: Dropbox Developer Terms and Conditions

#25

Post by Chaebixi »

TekMol wrote: post #21
QAPereo wrote: post #7

Binding arbitration is societal and legal poison, and must be killed. I strongly encourage everyone in the mean time, to opt out ASAP! Edit: At least you’ll be in court, or part of class action, rather than stuck in their arbitration system! For example they can use it to argue that sending an opt-out mails indicates that you have read the clause. It also indicates that you have read the TOS in general. It also indic…

I would expect that if you send the opt-out mail that will weaken your standing in court. Everything you give the other side makes the other side stronger and gives them more vectors to argue and attack. For example they can use it to argue that sending an opt-out mails indicates that you have read the clause. It also indicates that you have read the TOS in general. It also indicates that you agreed to the rest of th…

> For example they can use it to argue that sending an opt-out mails indicates that you have read the clause. It also indicates that you have read the TOS in general. It also indicates that you agreed to the rest of the TOS. Etc etc.

You could point to this thread, and say "I read a NY Times article a few years ago that said arbitration was shitty Then I saw people saying 'email this address to opt out,' so I did." That statement could also be entirely accurate.

Re: Dropbox Developer Terms and Conditions

#26

Post by pktgen »

TekMol wrote: post #21
QAPereo wrote: post #7

Binding arbitration is societal and legal poison, and must be killed. I strongly encourage everyone in the mean time, to opt out ASAP! Edit: At least you’ll be in court, or part of class action, rather than stuck in their arbitration system! For example they can use it to argue that sending an opt-out mails indicates that you have read the clause. It also indicates that you have read the TOS in general. It also indic…

I would expect that if you send the opt-out mail that will weaken your standing in court. Everything you give the other side makes the other side stronger and gives them more vectors to argue and attack. For example they can use it to argue that sending an opt-out mails indicates that you have read the clause. It also indicates that you have read the TOS in general. It also indicates that you agreed to the rest of th…

Quite simply, if you fail to opt out, you will have almost no chance at all of successfully fighting the arbitration agreement. Period. The Supreme Court precedent leaves little room for dispute on this point. So yes, everyone should follow the instructions and opt out.

Re: Dropbox Developer Terms and Conditions

#27

Post by Paul-ish »

TekMol wrote: post #21
QAPereo wrote: post #7

Binding arbitration is societal and legal poison, and must be killed. I strongly encourage everyone in the mean time, to opt out ASAP! Edit: At least you’ll be in court, or part of class action, rather than stuck in their arbitration system! For example they can use it to argue that sending an opt-out mails indicates that you have read the clause. It also indicates that you have read the TOS in general. It also indic…

I would expect that if you send the opt-out mail that will weaken your standing in court. Everything you give the other side makes the other side stronger and gives them more vectors to argue and attack. For example they can use it to argue that sending an opt-out mails indicates that you have read the clause. It also indicates that you have read the TOS in general. It also indicates that you agreed to the rest of th…

Maybe someone could start a service that automatically opts them out from arbitration clauses. Extra nice if it will send snail mail for the TOSes that require snail mail opt out.

Re: Dropbox Developer Terms and Conditions

#28

Post by Chaebixi »

stickydink wrote: post #10
brndnmtthws wrote: post #2

Given that nobody reads these things anyway, how enforceable are they? People just click 'Accept' and continue doing whatever they want.

Very enforceable. You clicked accept, you accepted. If you didn't read it, that's on you. According to the American Bar Association's wording on "Best Practices for Ensuring Enforceability" [0] > There is a check-box that users must click adjacent to an affirmation similar to, “By clicking on the box, you are indicating that you have read and agree to the Terms of Use”; > The webpage is designed so that if the user d…

Haven't the courts put extra limits on the terms that are enforceable in click-through EULAs? E.g. a court would strike a click-through term where you "contractually agreed" to pledge Facebook all your current and future income in exchange for the ability to post photos of your cat.

Re: Dropbox Developer Terms and Conditions

#29

Post by xphilter »

eganist wrote: post #8

Lawyers willing to opine: > 14.5. NO CLASS ACTIONS. Developer may only resolve disputes with Dropbox on an individual basis and will not bring a claim in a class, consolidated or representative action. Class arbitrations, class actions, private attorney general actions, and consolidation with other arbitrations are not allowed. Is this exact thing what's being considered in some of the more recent Supreme Court cases…

No. This waiver would be valid in court. The other cases deal with employee-employer relationships.

Re: Dropbox Developer Terms and Conditions

#30

Post by sigstoat »

brndnmtthws wrote: post #13
stickydink wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very enforceable. You clicked accept, you accepted. If you didn't read it, that's on you. According to the American Bar Association's wording on "Best Practices for Ensuring Enforceability" [0] > There is a check-box that users must click adjacent to an affirmation similar to, “By clicking on the box, you are indicating that you have read and agree to the Terms of Use”; > The webpage is designed so that if the user d…

Seems absurd to me. Companies could claim they put whatever they want in that text and the burden of proof would lie with the end user.

> Seems absurd to me.

i'm really interested; what do you think the alternative is?

would you be happier if you had to mail in a signed copy of the contract?

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