How America Fractured in 1968 • Hacker News Board

Re: How America Fractured in 1968

#31

Post by ethbro » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 12:57 PM UTC

badpun wrote: post #26

I've recently read an account of that time by UC Berkeley professor and it was terrifying: young men terrorizing and using violence towards students and professors during classes, setting fire and planting bombs/dynamite on university buildings, openly calling to killing policemen on radio stations. It seemed like their program was pure anarchy and destruction.

One of the more interesting pieces of open media I've found: a documentary produced at the time of the Columbia student protests of 1968. (49 min total)

https://archive.org/details/Columbia1969

https://archive.org/details/Columbia1969_2

There's a lot revisionist history on both sides, but it ultimately boiled down to young people attempting to assert their visions of the world, while entrenched, older power structures attempted to avoid change.

Personally? I think it's inspirational for people to get off their ass and try to effect change they believe in.

Action, not anger.

Re: How America Fractured in 1968

#32

Post by musage » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 12:57 PM UTC

badpun wrote: post #26

I've recently read an account of that time by UC Berkeley professor and it was terrifying: young men terrorizing and using violence towards students and professors during classes, setting fire and planting bombs/dynamite on university buildings, openly calling to killing policemen on radio stations. It seemed like their program was pure anarchy and destruction.

Why not link that account?

Mentioned in another comment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program

> Military intelligence officer K. Barton Osborne reports that he witnessed the following use of torture:

> > The use of the insertion of the 6-inch dowel into the canal of one of my detainee's ears, and the tapping through the brain until dead. The starvation to death (in a cage), of a Vietnamese woman who was suspected of being part of the local political education cadre in one of the local villages...The use of electronic gear such as sealed telephones attached to...both the women's vaginas and men's testicles [to] shock them into submission

Yes, I bet a some anti-social people used the protest movement to engage in their own oppression ("killing pigs" and "killing commie charlies" is the same thing in a way), but using them as a fig leaf is blatantly profiting of their deeds to hide yet other vile deeds, and to smear the best parts of a generation that at least tried.

That professor may never know even just one first-hand account of a person murdered as they looked away, and in turn may never know the life they actually lived. People don't like to hear that, but sometimes, who you think you are is just a shiny consolation price for being distracted from what you're actually serving. People can fool themselves and beyond a threshold, they're usually too weak to ever stop fooling themselves. They fell down the gravity well, let them serve as a warning. See them, see the well, and judge their words accordingly.

Re: How America Fractured in 1968

#33

Post by ethbro » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 1:02 PM UTC

interfixus wrote: post #11

I was eight in '68, and remember it well. The shootings, especially the Kennedy one, the strange Mexican olympics, the Czechoslovakia debacle, the American election, TV of longhaired protesters, and of course Apollo 8, which at the time I considered by far the most monumental event of the year- and still do. The Vietnam war made no great impression. It was a constant stream of background noise in my European childhoo…

If you're curious in retrospect, I found this to be the best book I've read about the entire Vietnam period. (along with historical context before and after)

https://www.amazon.com/Vietnam-History-Stanley-Karnow/dp/014...

Granted, there's a lot we know now that wasn't known at the time (e.g. MACV-SOG's pre-Tonkin activities and concealment of same from Congress, or the serious consideration of tactical nuclear weapons during the Battle of Khe Sanh), but if you're into history it's a good read.

Re: How America Fractured in 1968

#34

Post by coldtea » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 1:10 PM UTC

Clubber wrote: post #30

coldtea wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should have? Yes. Could have? Probably not. No one in the US gave two shits about French Indochina, it was all about Western Europe and containing the USSR/Communists during the scramble to pick up the pieces after the war. And what exactly business was of them to contain anything in foreign countries?

The US? Because if Europe gets overrun by Soviets, like they got overrun by Germany, guess who's next? Could you imagine Soviet Europe for the last 60 years? My uncle was drafted in Vietnam, except he didn't go to Vietnam, he went to West Germany. He spent his time waiting for the Soviets to roll their tanks over the border.

>The US? Because if Europe gets overrun by Soviets, like they got overrun by Germany, guess who's next?

Again, that's not their business. Besides half of Europe wanted to be socialist -- and I'm speaking of the support for such parties in Western Europe.

>Could you imagine Soviet Europe for the last 60 years?

Many wished exactly that at the time. Again, not the business of a foreign power to meddle.

Re: How America Fractured in 1968

#35

Post by pjc50 » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 1:26 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #34

Clubber wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US? Because if Europe gets overrun by Soviets, like they got overrun by Germany, guess who's next? Could you imagine Soviet Europe for the last 60 years? My uncle was drafted in Vietnam, except he didn't go to Vietnam, he went to West Germany. He spent his time waiting for the Soviets to roll their tanks over the border.

> The US? Because if Europe gets overrun by Soviets, like they got overrun by Germany, guess who's next? Again, that's not their business. Besides half of Europe wanted to be socialist -- and I'm speaking of the support for such parties in Western Europe. > Could you imagine Soviet Europe for the last 60 years? Many wished exactly that at the time. Again, not the business of a foreign power to meddle.

I don't think many people in Western Europe wished for a Soviet Europe, but quite a lot of people wanted something far more democratic-socialist than the US was willing to allow. It's definitely a factor in the creation of the EU.

The dichotomy of "everything must be US-style dystopia capitalism or full communism" has poisoned politics for over half a century.

Re: How America Fractured in 1968

#36

Post by evgen » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 1:26 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #27

evgen wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should have? Yes. Could have? Probably not. No one in the US gave two shits about French Indochina, it was all about Western Europe and containing the USSR/Communists during the scramble to pick up the pieces after the war. France had a large Communist party that was a key part of the resistance during the war and maintained a good reputation after, and large proletariat revolutions had a historical precedent in Fran…

> Should have? Yes. Could have? Probably not. No one in the US gave two shits about French Indochina, it was all about Western Europe and containing the USSR/Communists during the scramble to pick up the pieces after the war. And what exactly business was of them to contain anything in foreign countries?

It was no more the business of the US to contain the USSR in Western Europe than it was the business of the USSR to violently repress any possibility of democracy in Eastern Europe and install puppet governments in same. Realpolitik is a bitch, but better to understand the real world than pretend that some fantasy of how things "should" work is a useful guide.

Re: How America Fractured in 1968

#37

Post by SocialEngin33r » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 1:38 PM UTC

musage wrote: post #32

badpun wrote: post #26

I've recently read an account of that time by UC Berkeley professor and it was terrifying: young men terrorizing and using violence towards students and professors during classes, setting fire and planting bombs/dynamite on university buildings, openly calling to killing policemen on radio stations. It seemed like their program was pure anarchy and destruction.

Why not link that account? Mentioned in another comment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program > Military intelligence officer K. Barton Osborne reports that he witnessed the following use of torture: > > The use of the insertion of the 6-inch dowel into the canal of one of my detainee's ears, and the tapping through the brain until dead. The starvation to death (in a cage), of a Vietnamese woman who was susp…

> Comparing behavior of the government to the behavior of private citizens.

You know, it's possible for both of them to be the bad guys, right?

The class of '68 were petit totalitarians. Thankfully we had no Chairman Mao in the USA to really set them loose (like the Red Guard was in China).

The people building these bombs and such were cruel and violent. Hiding behind a shield of a "peace, love, and equality" ideology.

Re: How America Fractured in 1968

#38

Post by SocialEngin33r » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 1:41 PM UTC

ethbro wrote: post #31

badpun wrote: post #26

I've recently read an account of that time by UC Berkeley professor and it was terrifying: young men terrorizing and using violence towards students and professors during classes, setting fire and planting bombs/dynamite on university buildings, openly calling to killing policemen on radio stations. It seemed like their program was pure anarchy and destruction.

One of the more interesting pieces of open media I've found: a documentary produced at the time of the Columbia student protests of 1968. (49 min total) https://archive.org/details/Columbia1969 https://archive.org/details/Columbia1969_2 There's a lot revisionist history on both sides, but it ultimately boiled down to young people attempting to assert their visions of the world, while entrenched, older power structure…

Permanent revolution! Great way to build a stable society.

Re: How America Fractured in 1968

#39

Post by Clubber » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 1:44 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #34

Clubber wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US? Because if Europe gets overrun by Soviets, like they got overrun by Germany, guess who's next? Could you imagine Soviet Europe for the last 60 years? My uncle was drafted in Vietnam, except he didn't go to Vietnam, he went to West Germany. He spent his time waiting for the Soviets to roll their tanks over the border.

> The US? Because if Europe gets overrun by Soviets, like they got overrun by Germany, guess who's next? Again, that's not their business. Besides half of Europe wanted to be socialist -- and I'm speaking of the support for such parties in Western Europe. > Could you imagine Soviet Europe for the last 60 years? Many wished exactly that at the time. Again, not the business of a foreign power to meddle.

>Besides half of Europe wanted to be socialist -- and I'm speaking of the support for such parties in Western Europe.

There's a big, big difference between wanting to be socialist and living under a Soviet regime.

It is US business because if Europe was overrun by Soviets, the US would have to get involved, if not for their own interests, certainly the interests of the now subjugated Europe. It's also a hell of a lot harder fighting with your back to the ocean. I mean we are talking the exact same scenario that happened in 1914 and 1939, except instead of Germany, it would have been the USSR. The Eastern Bloc countries revolted for a reason.

Not only that, the victors of WWII wanted the US military there for that very reason.

>Again, not the business of a foreign power to meddle.

It sure was welcomed in 1917 and 1941.

Re: How America Fractured in 1968

#40

Post by cmrdporcupine » Tue, Jan 16, 2018, 1:49 PM UTC

badpun wrote: post #26

I've recently read an account of that time by UC Berkeley professor and it was terrifying: young men terrorizing and using violence towards students and professors during classes, setting fire and planting bombs/dynamite on university buildings, openly calling to killing policemen on radio stations. It seemed like their program was pure anarchy and destruction.

Or maybe not anarchy, but a result of committed increasingly politically conscious young people trying to stop an unjust, brutal, imperialist war, and in the process learning just how ugly their brutal imperialist government(s) were. And getting push back from that regime with force and oppression. And as a result some taking it to the logical extreme.