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Cryptocurrencies are collapsing

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Re: Cryptocurrencies are collapsing

#91

Post by eqmvii »

shroom wrote: post #37

Novice crypto question... I read a comment here about 1 month ago someone predicted a correction of BTC value to mind january because some coins would "expire" then. I'm trying to find the comment now to learn more. Anyone have any insight what I'm talking about?

They're talking about futures contracts, which are created with explicit end dates for delivery (or "delivery") of the underlying asset. I believe first officially listed and traded Bitcoin futures contracts were issues in December, and (some?) have expiration dates around now.

Prices around expiration dates can get quite volatile, as traders with large positions maneuver to maximize profit or minimize loss.

Re: Cryptocurrencies are collapsing

#92

Post by jacques_chester »

DennisP wrote: post #75
jacques_chester wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, bitcoin is a ledger scheme. There no "coins" per se. Which means it's very much like how banking works in practice: everyone keeps their own books and leaves the credits and debits on them. Real funds don't change hands all that often, it's easier just to keep the running tally if you trust your counterparty. Of course, trusting your counterparty requires you to know who they are, have stable addr…

You're basically right except with payment channels you mostly don't have to trust the counterparty. The simplest case is a unidirectional channel. To pay you a series of micropayments, I send a series of transactions with each one slightly larger, so each is the sum of all my payments. You can only submit one such transaction to the blockchain. I lock my funds so you don't have to worry they won't be available. Bidi…

If I'm reading you, the idea is to essentially to negotiate out-of-band? I remember reading something like this in Bitcoin and Cryptocurrency Technologies with a note saying nobody had tried it in practice.

> (Your analogy to a ledger with account balances is precisely correct for Ethereum, but Bitcoin actually has a somewhat different model.)

My understanding is that in bitcoin it's a log of transactions -- a ledger. Ethereum is instead addresses holding totals -- more like an account statement.

Re: Cryptocurrencies are collapsing

#93

Post by jrimbault »

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #74
paulgb wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just the discredited labor theory of value, applied to machines instead of humans.

In other words, I could spend an hour exerting effort and have nothing of value to show for it at the end?

That's obvious... You can work for a year and still get nothing... Because your work has no value in and of itself.

In general things are only as valuable as the "market" is willing to pay for them.

Re: Cryptocurrencies are collapsing

#94

Post by simik »

dan1234 wrote: post #26
flowctrl wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Lightning Network, coming soon to Bitcoin, will solve the performance & fee problems too. Stability will come with increased liquidity.

Is there an ETA for the Lightning Network? It seems to have been 'coming soon' for a while.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/7npeh6/lightning_n...

This post on reddit would be a good place to get understanding of the current LN status.

Re: Cryptocurrencies are collapsing

#95

Post by hsxd »

ramblerman wrote: post #90
hsxd wrote: post #31

It’s amazing how many people are against crypto currencies for some odd reason. A correction is being called a collapse, this is just pathetic.

A +10% drop in a day is pretty newsworthy for the DOW and wouldn't be called just a correction. Is it possible your rose colored glasses are just the other side of the spectrum to the against view?

Exactly, a +10% drop in a day is pretty newsworthy for the DOW and wouldn't be called just a correction. Cryptomarkets aren't the DOW, you're more than free to check the yearly charts on coinmarketcap.com, what we're seeing right now is not unusual for the market, and I'm saying this as someone who's been heavily involved for multiple years.

Re: Cryptocurrencies are collapsing

#96

Post by hsxd »

rplnt wrote: post #60
hsxd wrote: post #31

It’s amazing how many people are against crypto currencies for some odd reason. A correction is being called a collapse, this is just pathetic.

I'm against cryptos in their current form. It was better, and hopefully it will get better, but now it's a mess. Investors, buzzwords, hype, ...

It will get better, I like to draw parallels to the dotcom bubble–sooner or later we'll see a real collapse and the coins that are actually worth something will rise from the dust. Just like how Amazon and eBay did. This could take a year or three though.

Re: Cryptocurrencies are collapsing

#97

Post by chx »

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #80
jacques_chester wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many folks have an allergic reaction to hype.

Isn't that just exactly the same as 'hype', in the opposite direction? Clearly the logical approach is neither to follow the hype, nor shy away from it, but to ignore it altogether.

Not quite. We see ordinary people "invest" in what we perceive as gambling at best and a scam at worst and are infuriated by how various people, media etc are egging them on.

The Washington Post had it right in 2015 even though they didn't even use the neologism "hodl":

> - Hey, do you want to hear about the future? It's a digital currency called Bitcoin that lets you spend or move your money online without paying any fees. - Sounds great. How does it do that? - Well, Bitcoin saves you money by making transactions irreversible. - So ... if I get scammed, I got scammed? There's nothing I can do about it? - Yes. - Okay, but is it at least easy to use? - The thing is, I don't actually use it. I just hoard it. I'm waiting for some greater fools to push up the price by using theirs. - Oh. - Yeah. So you should buy some Bitcoins and use yours.

This is nothing but a scam. We don't want people to be scammed.

Re: Cryptocurrencies are collapsing

#98

Post by DennisP »

jacques_chester wrote: post #92
DennisP wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're basically right except with payment channels you mostly don't have to trust the counterparty. The simplest case is a unidirectional channel. To pay you a series of micropayments, I send a series of transactions with each one slightly larger, so each is the sum of all my payments. You can only submit one such transaction to the blockchain. I lock my funds so you don't have to worry they won't be available. Bidi…

If I'm reading you, the idea is to essentially to negotiate out-of-band? I remember reading something like this in Bitcoin and Cryptocurrency Technologies with a note saying nobody had tried it in practice. > (Your analogy to a ledger with account balances is precisely correct for Ethereum, but Bitcoin actually has a somewhat different model.) My understanding is that in bitcoin it's a log of transactions -- a ledger…

Unidirectional payment channels are currently live on Ethereum. Here's a full explanation of those, along with bidirectional and networked channels, with Solidity sample code: http://www.blunderingcode.com/a-lightning-network-in-two-pag...

I guess I've been misusing the term "ledger." You're exactly right for Ethereum. Bitcoin has transactions with "unspent outputs." Each transaction can have multiple inputs and outputs; to make a transaction you collect unspent outputs from previous transactions, use them as your inputs, and typically make two outputs, one to the payee address and one that holds the change.

Re: Cryptocurrencies are collapsing

#99

Post by joaomacp »

matwood wrote: post #68
Theodores wrote: post #41

They were, but, in the last few minutes the last hour numbers have all gone green. They were definitely all red when I checked this half an hour ago. I think the whole thing is a scam and that it is incredible the willingness of people to be scammed. Yes I see merit in a decent online currency that works like cash but securely, however, these crypto things are speculative tulip stocks in a book-keeper's window and th…

Not that I think it's a scam, but lets ignore that part for a moment. This market is a swing traders dream. 40% swings means there is a ton of money to be gamed off.

Sure, but also a lot of money to be lost. And you can only lose so much before you go broke.

Re: Cryptocurrencies are collapsing

#100

Post by lucozade »

hsxd wrote: post #31

It’s amazing how many people are against crypto currencies for some odd reason. A correction is being called a collapse, this is just pathetic.

It's probably neither.

Past experience would suggest a double digit move either way isn't surprising. But equally, it's not correcting anything as there's no meaningful book value to correct to.

These are likely just fairly arbitrary moves that will be followed by other arbitrary moves.

As the markets are almost completely opaque, unless you're the person dumping, attempts at attribution are mostly futile.

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