Live data from Hacker News

Is Legal Pot Crippling Mexican Drug Trafficking Organisations?

marginalrevolution.com

91–100 of 183 posts

Re: Is Legal Pot Crippling Mexican Drug Trafficking Organisations?

#91
post #41
post #10

The "Drug Trafficking Organizations" are the cartels. It is important to remember they don't exist to traffic drugs, they exist for the top leader(s) to obtain and maintain power, like a state-in-waiting. As other activities become more profitable, they switch over to those. Marijuana loses its profitability, they can switch to other drugs, guns, smuggling, "coyotes", or legitimate enterprise. This is what unfettered…

I'm not sure how you can say hierarchical organizations that use violence/coercion are in any way anarchist. Anarcho-capitalism requires voluntary engagement in a system of contracts and so forth. (Whether that could actually work in the real world is debatable but beside the point.)

I'm not saying the organization exists in anarchy -- we completely agree there.

I'm suggesting that a corrupt state, which cannot prevent the rise of a counter-state power like the cartels, and the evolution of anarcho-capitalism are similar.

The flaw I see with AC is that once the private police force and the private court system in an anarcho-capitalist state combine, there is nothing to prevent them from coercing the organization's will on all around. This is a de facto state. Given that this state may not have primacy, other groups may oppose -- civil war in a supposedly stateless society.

My thought here is that the cartel is the counter-state to Mexico, a state-in-waiting/hierarchical body capable of providing similar "services" that the state typically provides -- defense, mission-definition, communication access, as so on. Whether or not the people under their thumb agreed to this transfer of power is not really necessary to consider, as it is the circumstances at play.

Anyhow, my two cents.

Re: Is Legal Pot Crippling Mexican Drug Trafficking Organisations?

#92
post #72

Why doesn't Mexico just legalize heroin and cocaine distribution? Wouldn't this put an end to the cartels?

Because the US would destroy Mexico. Remember Panama?

Hell my own country tried to fully legalise cannabis in the 90s and it did not go down well.

Re: Is Legal Pot Crippling Mexican Drug Trafficking Organisations?

#93
post #10

The "Drug Trafficking Organizations" are the cartels. It is important to remember they don't exist to traffic drugs, they exist for the top leader(s) to obtain and maintain power, like a state-in-waiting. As other activities become more profitable, they switch over to those. Marijuana loses its profitability, they can switch to other drugs, guns, smuggling, "coyotes", or legitimate enterprise. This is what unfettered…

Wow, the state deems drugs to be illegal, but anarcho-capitalism is to blame somehow. A lot of people here are so steadfast to the bigger state idea that they see it everywhere as a solution even when it's the cause.

A key difference: Most Western corporate entities aren't physically dismembering their competition. Even in the early days of modern capitalism (late 1800s), that wasn't a thing.

Re: Is Legal Pot Crippling Mexican Drug Trafficking Organisations?

#94

No.... 'The Sinaloa cartel can buy a kilo of cocaine in the highlands of Colombia or Peru for around $2,000, then watch it accrue value as it makes its way to market. In Mexico, that kilo fetches more than $10,000. Jump the border to the United States, and it could sell wholesale for $30,000. Break it down into grams to distribute retail, and that same kilo sells for upward of $100,000 — more than its weight in gold.…

There has to be a demand for all of that cocaine. If they flood the black market with cocaine the value would drop and so would their profits per kilo.

Re: Is Legal Pot Crippling Mexican Drug Trafficking Organisations?

#95
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the poster was getting at the fact that pot users dwarf meth users in quantity, for example. I think the OP got it right -- even if there was no heroin crisis in the US, the cartels would turn to some other money-making proposition. The only way to quash them is to strengthen the Mexican state, whether it be this one or a new structure.

I agree with the fact that the Mexican state needs strength to deal with this. I think I just heard on NPR this morning that more poppies are being grown in Mexico as of late due to perfect climate. I also read the farmers get nearly nothing for their crop, and obviously the high end cartels take all the profits anyways. How would the US possibly strengthen the Mexican Government though, barring massive investment?

> How would the US possibly strengthen the Mexican Government though, barring massive investment?

Not creating uncertainty by constantly threatening to pull out of NAFTA would be a good start. Helping to strengthen Mexico's economy was once a mainstream republican position seen to mutually benefit both countries. [1]

[1] Excerpt on illegal immigrants from Regan/Bush 1980 primary debate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsmgPp_nlok

Re: Is Legal Pot Crippling Mexican Drug Trafficking Organisations?

#96
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the article is barely more than a headline and a bunch of mediocre comments itself, although it links to a paper behind a paywall. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ecoj.12521/full I would guess though that meth (a la Breaking Bad) is too easy to make inside the US for import competition, while heroin has been hit by the dual availability of Pharma delivered Oxy and China delivered Fentanyl/Carfentanil…

It's relatively easy to make from ephedrine or pseudoephedrine, but the over-the-counter decongestant pills containing those precursors have had their availability drastically curtailed in the US over the past 20 years. I think that Breaking Bad showed how much hard work it was to have a bunch of straw-purchasers buy pills up to each person's legal limit, so you could gather enough of them to make wholesale quantitie…

But again that presumes the markets are substitutatable at the same sort of scale and they're just not.

This line of thinking feels like a hold over from the 80s and the notion of drug pushers.

High school kids aren't going to just start doing meth.

Re: Is Legal Pot Crippling Mexican Drug Trafficking Organisations?

#97
post #72

Why doesn't Mexico just legalize heroin and cocaine distribution? Wouldn't this put an end to the cartels?

I don't know how popular that would be with Mexican voters, even if it drastically reduced the money flowing to cartels. Probably more important than domestic sentiment is the inevitable retaliation that would follow from the United States government if Mexico just legalized all drugs. I wouldn't be surprised if the US government cut off trade with Mexico and started running overt and covert operations to ensure Mexi…

Canada legalized marijuana, the US did not react.

Mexico could legalize marijuana with little US recourse.

Heroin and Cocaine might be problematic.

Re: Is Legal Pot Crippling Mexican Drug Trafficking Organisations?

#98
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's a lot harder to sell people meth, coke, heroin, etc. than it is to sell people pot. Only the first time. Then the opposite is true.

On what basis are you making such a statement? Afaik many people use meth for performance enhancement and as a cheaper alternative to coke, heroin mostly comes in with people who've built up an opiate addiction through prescription opiates and a cheap escapist solution. Add in a generally very crappy living situation, where these substances are used as means of escapism from reality, and most of the habit boils down…

> On what basis are you making such a statement?

That's whats being thought on elementary school traditionally, haha.

You don't have to look far though. Look at the usage of Khat by Somalians and Kratom by Thai. If its easily available and socially accepted, its gonna fly and will be very difficult to get rid of.

I can't wrap my head around using meth. Speed alone makes my head swirl and everything go fast. Exactly which performance would be enhanced by an even stronger upper? Or is it people with undiagnosed ADHD who resort to meth?

In Europe though, I know drugs like these are used in clubs, but so is XTC (MDMA & relatives) and GHB. XTC seems to be more rare in Eastern Europe where speed is more rampant. Whereas heroin usage is on an all time low. But theres people who go to clubs Thu/Fri/Sat (yeah, it starts on Thu for some reason). And if they use multiple times a week, yep then it goes quickly downhill.

> That's why I don't think there's some kind of "large untapped market" for substances like these. Most people are still rational actors and if otherwise content and happy with their life won't start with destructive behavior on the sole basis of a substance being "super addictive".

Oh, I do! All these young goths who automutilate themselves (though a niche subculture, I admit), teenagers in general cause of being unsure as well as having to perform (study). If its more widely and easier available, its also cheaper, and more accepted.

To be fair, I've also seen people addicted to booze, weed, and cigarettes. Its just that these drugs are more socially accepted.

Re: Is Legal Pot Crippling Mexican Drug Trafficking Organisations?

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how popular that would be with Mexican voters, even if it drastically reduced the money flowing to cartels. Probably more important than domestic sentiment is the inevitable retaliation that would follow from the United States government if Mexico just legalized all drugs. I wouldn't be surprised if the US government cut off trade with Mexico and started running overt and covert operations to ensure Mexi…

Canada legalized marijuana, the US did not react. Mexico could legalize marijuana with little US recourse. Heroin and Cocaine might be problematic.

I don't think that the US government would react drastically if Mexico legalized cannabis. I think that it would react drastically if Mexico legalized "hard" drugs, as ttul suggested.

On further consideration, I don't know if legalizing all drugs in Mexico would really hurt drug smuggling profits. The value of the product would still be much higher on the US side of the border. Legalization would just decrease the costs to source the drugs in Mexico. Lower barriers-to-entry into the smuggling business might reduce profit margins for smugglers as a group, depending on how violent the competition is. For a historical parallel, I guess I should read up on how Canada's economy and violent crime rates were affected by US Prohibition, when alcohol became much more valuable on the US side of the border than the Canadian side.

Re: Is Legal Pot Crippling Mexican Drug Trafficking Organisations?

#100
post #72

Why doesn't Mexico just legalize heroin and cocaine distribution? Wouldn't this put an end to the cartels?

I don't know how popular that would be with Mexican voters, even if it drastically reduced the money flowing to cartels. Probably more important than domestic sentiment is the inevitable retaliation that would follow from the United States government if Mexico just legalized all drugs. I wouldn't be surprised if the US government cut off trade with Mexico and started running overt and covert operations to ensure Mexi…

They should legalize the raw materials, unprocessed coca leaves, which people could chew. Unprocessed poppies, unprocessed Marijuana, meaning that hash, hash oil, etc would be illegal.
Post reply on HN