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Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

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Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#21

Post by toyg »

bertil wrote: post #19
xr4ti wrote: post #4

I really don't like the authors shoehorning a linear model into this work. I perceive it as an attempt to give the article an undeserved veneer of statistical/mathematical rigor.[1] I think their hypothesis would be much better supported by typical social science approaches, such as citation and quotation of primary sources and comparative study. For example, how does the Sicilian Mafia compare with the Camorra (Napl…

It’s less a way to come off as “sciencey” and more a way to get your ideas accepted at this point. The people I know in the list of thanks would wholeheartedly agree with your the regression is forced but it gets neo-classic economists (when I was studying the vast majority and presumably still holding the reins of key publications) to not dismiss you as “psychologists”. I’m not sure if the right approach is to use b…

> it gets neo-classic economists [...] to not dismiss you as “psychologists”

Lol, that's funny - I'm pretty much at the point of dismissing "fundamentalist neoclassic economists"... As much as they try to deny it, economic studies are just social studies with a couple of simplistic graphs on top to look "mathy".

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#22

Post by muse900 »

Where I grew up (Crete), I kept on listening to stories by elders about how their grandfathers and family members left the place due to vendettas between families and all went over to Sicily.

Judging by the mentality of people around me, even those days I'd say they pay too much into respect, and disrespecting someones honour by any means could lead into the start of a vendetta. Bear in mind we are now in 2018 and those things are still happening.

My sort explanation is that obviously people that resided in Sicily, Southern Crete etc were not afraid to use force to defend their honour, and make a living. Later on people that left Sicily and went to e.g New York were a bit toughed up by living in a place that vendetta was a very common phenomenon and while they saw an opportunity where they could force fear into the other racial groups in new york, they took it.

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#23

Post by jstanley »

toyg wrote: post #21
bertil wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s less a way to come off as “sciencey” and more a way to get your ideas accepted at this point. The people I know in the list of thanks would wholeheartedly agree with your the regression is forced but it gets neo-classic economists (when I was studying the vast majority and presumably still holding the reins of key publications) to not dismiss you as “psychologists”. I’m not sure if the right approach is to use b…

> it gets neo-classic economists [...] to not dismiss you as “psychologists” Lol, that's funny - I'm pretty much at the point of dismissing "fundamentalist neoclassic economists"... As much as they try to deny it, economic studies are just social studies with a couple of simplistic graphs on top to look "mathy".

As far as I'm concerned, economics is just supply and demand, and the efficient market hypothesis. Anything beyond that is some combination of politics, psychology, and social studies.

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#24

Post by DaniFong »

muse900 wrote: post #22

Where I grew up (Crete), I kept on listening to stories by elders about how their grandfathers and family members left the place due to vendettas between families and all went over to Sicily. Judging by the mentality of people around me, even those days I'd say they pay too much into respect, and disrespecting someones honour by any means could lead into the start of a vendetta. Bear in mind we are now in 2018 and th…

maybe you do not feel the incredible burden of honor but it is there for some about principle that are noble and dire today

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#25

Post by DaniFong »

DaniFong wrote: post #24
muse900 wrote: post #22

Where I grew up (Crete), I kept on listening to stories by elders about how their grandfathers and family members left the place due to vendettas between families and all went over to Sicily. Judging by the mentality of people around me, even those days I'd say they pay too much into respect, and disrespecting someones honour by any means could lead into the start of a vendetta. Bear in mind we are now in 2018 and th…

maybe you do not feel the incredible burden of honor but it is there for some about principle that are noble and dire today

how can you not fight for archimedes ?

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#26

Post by noisymemories »

antirez wrote: post #18
jeffdavis wrote: post #8

"hampered economic development in Italy for more than a century" Hamper compared to what? A magical utopia without crime, or a realistic counterfactual with another set of criminals? Speaking of which: is organized crime worse or better than disorganized crime?

In the town where I live here near Catania, in order to open and run a shop in the main street, you have yet to pay money to ugly people in 2018... Just as a data point.

Another funny anecdote on the relationship between organized crime and "ground control" near this very same town: Two days ago they burned to the ground a freaking kids library, Italy's president was supposed to speak near there tomorrow.

The most probable explanation for this right now being that the event would've adversely impacted the local drug smuggling business.

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#27

Post by hutzlibu »

erikb wrote: post #16
jeffdavis wrote: post #8

"hampered economic development in Italy for more than a century" Hamper compared to what? A magical utopia without crime, or a realistic counterfactual with another set of criminals? Speaking of which: is organized crime worse or better than disorganized crime?

Why are the best discussion points these days always downvoted? One doesn't have to agree with someone, but one should appreciate reading something one hasn't thought to be correct oneself. Also some people really, and reasonably, argue that government is nothing else but a kind of Mafia that simply one the competition for being called "government". You also know the discussions of "freedom fighter" versus "terrorist…

"Herschel I. Grossman (1995) and Stergios Skaperdas (2001) both consider mafia as an alternative enforcer of property rights. Using a model with two actors (a self-governing community and mafia) and potential robbers, Skaperdas (2001) shows that in the absence of an enforcer of property rights, mafia can represent a sort of second best solution"

I do agree, that mafia act as a government. But there is still quite a difference to a democratic government. It is more a olygarchy/despotism.

But I believe our roots of government back in the middle ages, when feudals conquered new peasants to profit from them, were very alike. And there might be still characteristics in our institutions from that legacy. People definitely view it that way, when they pay taxes ...

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#28

Post by simo7 »

Well maybe that's one of the first "application", but it's a well know fact that Mafia's rise was fostered by the Italian unification.

Southern Italy was for the most part a feudal system controlled by a traditional aristocracy.

The unification prompted by one of the Northern Italian states meant the wiping out of the existing Southern Italian aristocracy.

Northern Italian bourgeoisie and aristocracy became the new ruling classes of the new unified Italy.

Although they tried to replace the Southern Italian aristocracy with a new class of bureaucracy, the traditional feudal structure of the South and the sudden void of power made it easier for an organization like Mafia to arise.

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#29

Post by delib »

xr4ti wrote: post #4

I really don't like the authors shoehorning a linear model into this work. I perceive it as an attempt to give the article an undeserved veneer of statistical/mathematical rigor.[1] I think their hypothesis would be much better supported by typical social science approaches, such as citation and quotation of primary sources and comparative study. For example, how does the Sicilian Mafia compare with the Camorra (Napl…

> be much better supported by typical social science approaches

This implies that linear regression is not a typical social science method. If you review articles in sociology or political science journals, you will find that many articles use quantitative methods, and nearly all of those quantitative articles use regression.

They also attempt to get at the causality implied in their hypothesis. It's hard to do that purely with qualitative methods. Not everybody might find their IV regression convincing (they rarely are), but it's good to see that they tested their hypothesis with data.

Re: Origins of the Sicilian Mafia: The Market for Lemons

#30

Post by antirez »

noisymemories wrote: post #26
antirez wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the town where I live here near Catania, in order to open and run a shop in the main street, you have yet to pay money to ugly people in 2018... Just as a data point.

Another funny anecdote on the relationship between organized crime and "ground control" near this very same town: Two days ago they burned to the ground a freaking kids library, Italy's president was supposed to speak near there tomorrow. The most probable explanation for this right now being that the event would've adversely impacted the local drug smuggling business.

OMG I missed this (http://www.cataniatoday.it/cronaca/incendio-sede-briganti-li...), that's terrible. Thanks for sharing.
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