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Stanford CS9: Problem-Solving for the CS Technical Interview

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Re: Stanford CS9: Problem-Solving for the CS Technical Interview

#111

Post by barry-cotter »

sjg007 wrote: post #71
firstplacelast wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sister is a travel nurse. She does not prepare for interviews and typically has several a year. Her entire interview process goes: call the agency and tell them she is looking for a new position, have one to several 30-45minute phone calls with hiring managers at the hospitals she is interested in (she actually took one once in the middle of a wine tasting - and got the job), then wait to hear back. That's what it's…

Right but she is licensed, this is the main issue.

Indeed. If it was illegal to work as a programmer without a Master’s degree in Computer Science with a GPA above 3.0 the interview process would not look like the current one.

Re: Stanford CS9: Problem-Solving for the CS Technical Interview

#112

Post by ztjio »

bearforcenine wrote: post #46
davesque wrote: post #38

The on-the-spot technical interview is the biggest waste of time in the history of humanity. Everyone underperforms in technical interviews. I've conducted a number of them and I've never learned a single thing other than the fact that people make surprising mistakes when under pressure in contrived situations. Here's something that I think works much better: come up with a novel challenge that requires a couple hour…

How do you prevent cheating? Someone can very easily have a friend complete the challenge and walk them through it in a lot of detail. They could prep well enough that you hire someone who is massively under-qualified. Then if your company is large enough, your novel challenge gets leaked and everyone knows it ahead of time. Solutions start being sold or distributed. Then your interview is meaningless. I'm all for a…

For anyone with any kind of reasonable background suggesting they can do the job, the alternative is simple: just give them the job on a probationary basis. Give 5 people the job, tell them one will keep it after a 3 month contract period. Choose the ones you want to keep.

Re: Stanford CS9: Problem-Solving for the CS Technical Interview

#113

Post by ubernostrum »

brailsafe wrote: post #30
czardoz wrote: post #3

This is what I was afraid of. I always thought interviews were something where you present your abilities, experience and knowledge. It should not be something you "prepare" for because then you're not showing off your skills, instead you're just regurgitating what you are trained to do. I do somewhat blame the whiteboard culture, but I guess that's the one that has given the best results so far. I've no doubt that i…

FWIW, preparing for interviews is standard practice irrespective of the industry.

Not quite in the way it is in this industry.

What is unusual is that we essentially ask people to set aside and forget everything they know about how to do their jobs, and instead perform a separate set of skills which, since they are't used on the job, must be carefully re-acquired whenever it's time to go interview.

No other industry I'm aware of does that.

Re: Stanford CS9: Problem-Solving for the CS Technical Interview

#114

Post by ajmurmann »

bearforcenine wrote: post #52
lz400 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure but if that were the case wouldn't you think it's silly that you need to train months to be able to juggle to land a SWE position? wouldn't it be stupid? the current interview culture in those companies is not as silly as juggling but is also not a fair representation of candidates, with too much weight being in algorithmic puzzles and behavioral checkboxes you can train for. Obviously if the process was a 100%…

Yes, it is silly that you have to train for an interview for months to land a SWE position at a top company. However, until someone comes up with a less gameable system or a magic wand that stack ranks applicants, then I don't see a viable alternative :\ As someone who gives a lot of interviews, I'd love a better way to assess a candidates ability that is less gameable, but we haven't found one yet.

I just paid program with people on the actual work we have that day. The only way to game that is to become great at what you'd do once you got the job.

Re: Stanford CS9: Problem-Solving for the CS Technical Interview

#115

Post by sgustard »

jnbiche wrote: post #64
brailsafe wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, preparing for interviews is standard practice irrespective of the industry.

> FWIW, preparing for interviews is standard practice irrespective of the industry. This is simply wrong. I suppose if you've spent your whole life as a developer, it may seem like it would be done likewise other industries, but it's not the case. Typically, how you might "prepare" for interviews in other industries is...learning about your potential employer. And maybe reviewing your accomplishments. That's it. And…

And yet every hiring manager on here can tell you stories of hiring someone who passed all the screens, but on the job could not write a single line of competent code. The industry provides too much cover to fake it with a title that sounds technical but isn't. You might hire a musician based on hours of discussion of their deep knowlege of violin theory, but it would still be a mistake without hearing them play.

Re: Stanford CS9: Problem-Solving for the CS Technical Interview

#116

Post by ramzyo »

lr4444lr wrote: post #82
brailsafe wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, preparing for interviews is standard practice irrespective of the industry.

I think the OP is implying through that this is creeping into top American university curricula. Having a Stanford degree in Comp. Sci. should correlate with interviewing success at relevant job openings for new graduates. This kind of "teaching to the test" and time spent on "job preparedness" is typical of community colleges and trade schools. They serve an important function, but it's distinct from the mission of…

This comment reeks of elitism. In my experience, new grads from top American universities are incredibly intelligent, but their community college and trade school counterparts score much higher on job preparedness, an incredibly marketable and bankable skill. As someone with a top American university degree, I’d have loved a course in job preparedness, and have learned a ton from coworkers who have succeeded as Software Engineers and also attended community colleges and trade schools.

Re: Stanford CS9: Problem-Solving for the CS Technical Interview

#117

Post by sidlls »

closeparen wrote: post #66
bearforcenine wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been my experience that any industry that * Is attractive enough (compensation, lifestyle, etc.) * and has a larger supply of qualified applicants than desirable positions Will result in applicants preparing for however they are interviewed, tested, etc. This isn't unique to software engineering interviews. People prepare for interviews or exams in finance, law, medicine, etc. They all have a system that is game…

“Interviews or exams” That you think interviews and exams are interchangeable concepts illustrates the problem. Nothing wrong with a rigorous filter at the gates of the profession, but lawyers don’t need to spend months studying for each company’s half-assed version of the bar exam each time they change jobs. Our industry is dysfunctional because, unlike law and medicine, no one trusts the credentialing mechanisms.

Credentialing isn't even the beginning: no one trusts other software companies, either, apparently. An engineer at Google will face a battery of asinine CS trivia when he interviews at FAAN, just the same as he faced interviewing at G. Hell, he might even face similar interviews if he applied at non-FAANG companies.

Re: Stanford CS9: Problem-Solving for the CS Technical Interview

#118

Post by NTDF9 »

bearforcenine wrote: post #39
NTDF9 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> FWIW, preparing for interviews is standard practice irrespective of the industry. Industry is sane. They ask stuff relevant to actual work or real basics. They don't make a gameable process full of rules and techniques.

It's been my experience that any industry that * Is attractive enough (compensation, lifestyle, etc.) * and has a larger supply of qualified applicants than desirable positions Will result in applicants preparing for however they are interviewed, tested, etc. This isn't unique to software engineering interviews. People prepare for interviews or exams in finance, law, medicine, etc. They all have a system that is game…

I think you'll find this relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MTRxRO5SRA

Re: Stanford CS9: Problem-Solving for the CS Technical Interview

#119

Post by shakna »

sgustard wrote: post #115
jnbiche wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> FWIW, preparing for interviews is standard practice irrespective of the industry. This is simply wrong. I suppose if you've spent your whole life as a developer, it may seem like it would be done likewise other industries, but it's not the case. Typically, how you might "prepare" for interviews in other industries is...learning about your potential employer. And maybe reviewing your accomplishments. That's it. And…

And yet every hiring manager on here can tell you stories of hiring someone who passed all the screens, but on the job could not write a single line of competent code. The industry provides too much cover to fake it with a title that sounds technical but isn't. You might hire a musician based on hours of discussion of their deep knowlege of violin theory, but it would still be a mistake without hearing them play.

On the same line of thought, you wouldn't hire a violinist just because you heard them play the scales.

In music, you often get handed some sheet music or asked to prepare something.

In the cooking industry, you throw them at a kitchen and tell them to impress you.

In the programming industry... We ask people to write toys and logic puzzles. That isn't what they'll spend their days doing, that's just practice, like scales.

Re: Stanford CS9: Problem-Solving for the CS Technical Interview

#120

Post by sndean »

jnbiche wrote: post #64
brailsafe wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, preparing for interviews is standard practice irrespective of the industry.

> FWIW, preparing for interviews is standard practice irrespective of the industry. This is simply wrong. I suppose if you've spent your whole life as a developer, it may seem like it would be done likewise other industries, but it's not the case. Typically, how you might "prepare" for interviews in other industries is...learning about your potential employer. And maybe reviewing your accomplishments. That's it. And…

> And in industries like law, medicine, etc., if a potential employer asked you to perform some random task from a highly technical and complex subject from med school or law school, it would be very unusual.

I'm not a developer, so maybe this sounds absurd, but as someone who has good understanding of how medicine works, maybe this industry could use a few standardized exams/certifications?

I think it's possible that, because a practicing physician will have passed the MCAT, USMLE Step 1/2/3, and have obtained a license, they don't have to deal with this sort of bullshit in interviews. It seems like the idea of a "licensed software developer" may never exist, but maybe that's why the hiring process is the way it is.

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