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Miners Aren’t Friends

blog.keep.network

161–170 of 256 posts

Re: Miners Aren’t Friends

#161
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO, "code is law" is a silly thing to aim for, and by ignoring that saying for the DAO incident proves that Ethereum is more valuable than it would be otherwise. The "code is law" is just hype about how amazing and new and unprecedented this thing is, but it's a truly bad idea. The reversibility of bugs is a good thing. In human law, there are exceptions, and appeals, etc. Aiming for a completely mechanical system…

I think it's just the wrong forum, and fundamentally incompatible with "popularity". In crypto-anarchist mythos, hackers interact via deterministic, mechanical intermediary. It's darwinian. It's expected that participants shall beware, and inept ones will be injured. It may not be for you, and it may not be for society writ large, but it is an excellent and very important idea. Removing human judgement is exactly the…

In crypto-anarchist mythos, hackers interact via deterministic, mechanical intermediary.

What a completely idiotic notion that is. Language can be used to deceive, and if the neverending freakshow of "smart contract" bugs shows anything it is that computer languages are not exempt.

Removing human judgement is exactly the point.

The Underhanded C Contest is not about human judgement.

Re: Miners Aren’t Friends

#162

Can any explain how the economics of mining does not promote the creation of a miner monopoly, aka a "miner Amazon". Once a single entity controls mining, Game Over: the economy is owned.

Isn't that incentive enough for any entity to deliberately stay below the threshold? Once they cross it, trust in the network, and thus price, plummets. That's reason enough for most to avoid getting that big.

How would you know though? IP addresses can be concealed by VPNs.

Re: Miners Aren’t Friends

#163
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And proof of stake is likely to be even worse. The people with the most money decide who gets richer and who doesn't. What could possibly go wrong?

Not quite. The richest actually do the work to keep the system running. They need to stake their claim to the system to validate everyone else's trx. If is in their best interest not to mess up, otherwise they lose their stake in the system.

So those who benefit from cemented structures are incentivized to maintain status quo. Sounds like humanity, just a different set of masters.

Re: Miners Aren’t Friends

#164

Can someone explain to me how on earth Ethereum is still a thing? People have lost hundreds of millions of dollars in the Ethereum ecosystem, many due to basic flaws in the "Solidity" language. For example, last November $280 million was frozen in Parity wallets because function visibility defaults to external rather than internal (see the previous HN discussion here[0]). Just for fun, I was looking through the Secur…

Well, they start with an assumption that the halting problem is addressed simply by "running out of gas." I could easily see a dev assessing the infinite loop potential and glibly thinking, "well, that would just run out of gas, too." That doesn't explain the lack of guarantee on "constant". What is the technical detail which prevents such a guarantee?

I don't know, but constant as a function return value signature does not make much sense at all.

Re: Miners Aren’t Friends

#165
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's just the wrong forum, and fundamentally incompatible with "popularity". In crypto-anarchist mythos, hackers interact via deterministic, mechanical intermediary. It's darwinian. It's expected that participants shall beware, and inept ones will be injured. It may not be for you, and it may not be for society writ large, but it is an excellent and very important idea. Removing human judgement is exactly the…

> Removing human judgement is exactly the point. Whether this thrills or horrifies you is, I think, a personality trait. I attach neither horror nor thrill to that idea, I find it laughable. We all have our abstract ideals, and these abstract ideals eventually meet the reality of human interaction. There is no possibility of removing human judgement, as long as humans are in control of the machines. Humans may tempor…

More of a clarification of my original comment:

I'm still a little lost. What value does ETH provide if we cede to human emotions and social power structures at the end of the day? We don't need to invent a cryptocracy to realize a world where people who own 51% of the power can acceptably or at least "fairly" screw over the the dissenting lot with 49%... that is just old school power. It has been around for ages.

In theory, ETH proposed a playing field where law is specified using a language that everyone agrees upon, and where applications of said law are recorded on a decentralized public ledge and even executed using the compute power of the underlying network. The system was valuable precisely because it provided a cryptographically robust way to circumvent humanity for the purpose of recording law with authority and confidence.

But all we've learned from this experiment is that when someone messes up, or not, and it impacts a lot of people (in these cases negatively), they will appeal to the people who own the power and request execution of an "authorized" (not by the original rules but by virtue of ownership of power) out-of-band attack against the system. In other words, they'll collude to perform an illegal move in order to counter the undersireable outcome. In essence, it's a network coup.

Don't get me wrong, I think this is kinda cool too. And if ETH or blockchains or whatever is the zeitgeist what inspires people to continue to imagine and build transparent societies where we have better and better distribution of power, perhaps it has artistic value.

But these events jade people, and the reason they lose trust in the system is because they learn just how easily it is not to be trusted.. how human it is. You put your faith in a system only to see the network owners use their power to operate outside of it.

Of course this is great when you are the beneficiary of a network reset. But by condoning rewriting history, you've chosen to sacrifice the system and pander to your emotions above those of the people who shared trust with you when everyone agreed to play by the rules. So maybe you don't live in an ivory tower: there may appear to be few victimes (namely the bad actor) but finally don't forget the contracts that become void when the network is reset. To those who bought in ideologically to ETH, these events effectively invalidate the entire system. And ETH becomes a failed experiment.

We both appear to agree that ETH is still human. You claim this is a boon. I am skeptical. I am still curious why being human innately makes ETH more valuable. Perhaps you mean the fact that the participants evoked "human mode" over "machine mode" is an indication that people value this system dearly. I do not disagree. But I'd argue this value comes from a different place. This value comes from a desire for, well, value itself. This is a different, darker, value. It's no longer simply valued for its merit: the vision for a mechanically infungable system isolated from human emotional responses. But it's just another victim of human irrationality, greed, ignorance, and laziness. And that is a little sad in my opinion.

Just to be clear I'm not bitter I've never owned any ether.

Re: Miners Aren’t Friends

#166
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And proof of stake is likely to be even worse. The people with the most money decide who gets richer and who doesn't. What could possibly go wrong?

Not quite. The richest actually do the work to keep the system running. They need to stake their claim to the system to validate everyone else's trx. If is in their best interest not to mess up, otherwise they lose their stake in the system.

Cool. So it’s a centralised system ran by the rich (which I don’t necessarily have a problem with).

Again, what is it that ETH provides society that's new and useful?

Re: Miners Aren’t Friends

#167
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's just the wrong forum, and fundamentally incompatible with "popularity". In crypto-anarchist mythos, hackers interact via deterministic, mechanical intermediary. It's darwinian. It's expected that participants shall beware, and inept ones will be injured. It may not be for you, and it may not be for society writ large, but it is an excellent and very important idea. Removing human judgement is exactly the…

In crypto-anarchist mythos, hackers interact via deterministic, mechanical intermediary. What a completely idiotic notion that is. Language can be used to deceive, and if the neverending freakshow of "smart contract" bugs shows anything it is that computer languages are not exempt. Removing human judgement is exactly the point. The Underhanded C Contest is not about human judgement.

This thread has effectively devolved to "humans will be humans" vs "we can build systems that make us better humans". I don't disagree with your jaded stance that humans will be humans. But I don't think it's idiotic to try and continually improve the systems we imagine in pursuit of higher standards for society.

Re: Miners Aren’t Friends

#168

Can someone explain to me how on earth Ethereum is still a thing? People have lost hundreds of millions of dollars in the Ethereum ecosystem, many due to basic flaws in the "Solidity" language. For example, last November $280 million was frozen in Parity wallets because function visibility defaults to external rather than internal (see the previous HN discussion here[0]). Just for fun, I was looking through the Secur…

You seem to think terrible design is a blocker to adoption.

Are you acquainted with Javascript or windows?

Re: Miners Aren’t Friends

#169

IT's capitalism in its purest form. The work done is work n the physical sense of production, but from a labor perspective it ends up as a constant rote of attrition and self negation - people gt interested in coins to make a quick buck and take it easy, but either drop or spend all their time, energy, and money racing for a slice of the pie while producing little of value - in this case, trust tokens which may or ma…

> a medium of exchange that doesn't use absolute units, but is a function of your ability to pay.

This is already implemented in many areas of modern life, especially by governments (Obamacare, progressive taxation, social security, etc), and it has a major negative side effect of incentivizing poverty: either real (by encouraging the young to work as little as possible) or faked (by encouraging those with accumulated wealth to conceal it as much as possible).

Re: Miners Aren’t Friends

#170
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO, "code is law" is a silly thing to aim for, and by ignoring that saying for the DAO incident proves that Ethereum is more valuable than it would be otherwise. The "code is law" is just hype about how amazing and new and unprecedented this thing is, but it's a truly bad idea. The reversibility of bugs is a good thing. In human law, there are exceptions, and appeals, etc. Aiming for a completely mechanical system…

There are a number of reasons a court might throw out a contract, but one party having made an expensive mistake is not one of them. Edit: turns out this isn't true. TIL that a contract to which no reasonable or informed person would have agreed can be thrown out as "unconscionable." And even if it were, why roll back the block chain to rectify the situation? In traditional accounting, wouldn't you need a ledger reco…

> And even if it were, why roll back the block chain to rectify the situation? In traditional accounting, wouldn't you need a ledger record of both the mistake and its correction?

This is exactly what happened. The blockchain wasn't rolled back. New transactions crediting the victims were injected into it.

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