Lana Del Rey, Radiohead, and the Difficulty of Making Original Music • Hacker News Board

Re: Lana Del Rey, Radiohead, and the Difficulty of Making Original Music

#101

Post by jimnotgym » Sun, Jan 14, 2018, 6:06 PM UTC

billsix wrote: post #80

jimnotgym wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The song is in E major, yet G# major and A minor are not chords in that scale. Guitarists learning scales? I mean like the names of the notes rather than the shapes they make on the neck? I am suggesting that knowledge of musical theory had no part in this at all. You need to think in the terms of an indie guitarist of average ability like Thom Yorke. Open, the fret after the one with the dot on, the next fret with…

Try not to judge a musician's talent and knowledge based off of their popular hits. John Mayer is a phenomenal guitarist whose commercially successful songs require few of his actual abilities. I find that Radiohead creates quite interesting music from a theory perspective. Learn to play songs like "no surprises" and "paranoid Android" from Ok Computer. They venture outside of normal key in various ways. Being able t…

> Learn to play songs like "no surprises"

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression here. I base my supposition about how Radiohead constructed their early hits from learning to play them. I like 'No suprises', which I learned for the vocal challenge, but I think this bears me out. IIRC the song opens with an arpeggio using a simple open-D shape behind a capo high up the neck which gives that interesting tone. The second chord just involves shifting a finger to change the bass note, and the D shape can be maintained right through to the little ditty before it repeats. It sounds pretty but I can't believe he wrote that on a score and then found a way to play it. It seems to be that he had been fiddling around with the classic guitarists trick of holding a chord shape and moving the bass note around, noting what sounds good. The skill is surely in taking that little ditty and translating it into a song.

From the same album IIRC was 'Fake Plastic Trees'. I remember being staggered by the exotic chord names and the amazing sounds it made. then I set out to learn it, and again they are classic chord shapes with shifting bass notes etc.

So I wont credit Thom Yorke with having been a great guitar player back then, or even having somehow composed those songs with the aim of trying out interesting theoretical concepts. I will credit him with a great ear for turning those little tricks into songs.

Since this is HN I will note that his wiki says he does not read music[0] and that the rest of the band take his little sketches and develop them harmonically.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thom_Yorke#Artistry

Re: Lana Del Rey, Radiohead, and the Difficulty of Making Original Music

#102

Post by agf » Sun, Jan 14, 2018, 6:09 PM UTC

billsix wrote: post #97

mbrameld wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter that they're not musically in the same key. It's their physical position on the fretboard that is being compared to the physical position of the white keys on the piano

Proof that Creep cannot be played using only white keys. https://youtu.be/mp64EY_WAcs Q.E.D.

You're missing the point. He's not claiming that musically sliding a chord and playing the white keys are the same, he's saying physically they're the same. Both are physically natural and so could be chosen for physical rather than musical reasons. There are, of course, also musical reasons to select those options -- like you said, the white keys are C major -- but that is not necessary to motivate the choice in either case. If I didn't know that the white keys on a piano were C major, I'd still be likely to play them because they're physically convenient.

Re: Lana Del Rey, Radiohead, and the Difficulty of Making Original Music

#103

Post by billsix » Sun, Jan 14, 2018, 6:14 PM UTC

agf wrote: post #102

billsix wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proof that Creep cannot be played using only white keys. https://youtu.be/mp64EY_WAcs Q.E.D.

You're missing the point. He's not claiming that musically sliding a chord and playing the white keys are the same, he's saying physically they're the same. Both are physically natural and so could be chosen for physical rather than musical reasons. There are, of course, also musical reasons to select those options -- like you said, the white keys are C major -- but that is not necessary to motivate the choice in eit…

(sorry, I had edited my post before I saw your reply)

Re: Lana Del Rey, Radiohead, and the Difficulty of Making Original Music

#104

Post by jimnotgym » Sun, Jan 14, 2018, 6:20 PM UTC

Joeboy wrote: post #66

jimnotgym wrote: post #7

For anyone who doesn't play the guitar, 'Creep' and the Hollies track is is derived from come feature a rather obvious chord progression. Physically it is the result of sliding an open E chord down the neck to produce higher notes then, la piece de resistance, taking a finger off. Radiohead added a killer feature of turning the gain up on the amplifier for the chorus, genius. It's the kind of thing teenagers everywhe…

With a few jazzy exceptions, you can play any pop/rock song by sliding an open E chord up and down the neck and sometimes taking a finger off. All you're saying there is that the song is constructed of major and minor chords, which I'd guess a comfortable 95% of pop/rock songs are (guitar-based or otherwise). Edit: Also you can write any computer program by simply pressing the buttons on a computer keyboard in the ri…

> Also you can write any computer program by simply pressing the buttons on a computer keyboard in the right order

But you couldn't write many useful programs by simply typing the top row of the keyboard in ascending order and repeating for 3 minutes 59

> you can play any pop/rock song by sliding an open E chord up and down the neck and sometimes taking a finger off.

Exactly, why do we allow them to copyright them? The point with 'Creep' is that they are physically close together and in a simple order. Its a great beginner song for someone learning barre chords

Re: Lana Del Rey, Radiohead, and the Difficulty of Making Original Music

#105

Post by billsix » Sun, Jan 14, 2018, 6:21 PM UTC

jimnotgym wrote: post #101

billsix wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try not to judge a musician's talent and knowledge based off of their popular hits. John Mayer is a phenomenal guitarist whose commercially successful songs require few of his actual abilities. I find that Radiohead creates quite interesting music from a theory perspective. Learn to play songs like "no surprises" and "paranoid Android" from Ok Computer. They venture outside of normal key in various ways. Being able t…

> Learn to play songs like "no surprises" Sorry if I gave the wrong impression here. I base my supposition about how Radiohead constructed their early hits from learning to play them. I like 'No suprises', which I learned for the vocal challenge, but I think this bears me out. IIRC the song opens with an arpeggio using a simple open-D shape behind a capo high up the neck which gives that interesting tone. The second…

Fair enough :-)

Re: Lana Del Rey, Radiohead, and the Difficulty of Making Original Music

#106

Post by pault » Sun, Jan 14, 2018, 6:36 PM UTC

JohnStrangeII wrote: post #39

cJ0th wrote: post #4

As a hobby music producer I just can't wrap my head around the logic behind copyright infringement. It's so arbitrary. It's illegal to steal a melody but sophisticated chord progressions are fine. It's illegal to copy the text of even the simplest verse but reverse engineering some complex synthesizer sounds is fine. Although I personally strive for it, I don't think originality is a point worth discussing. Music is…

What we see right now is the beginning of the "intellectual property" lawsuit wave. Music producers, artists, and record labels have always known that pop music doesn't come out of thin air and is highly repetitive. For some popular chord progressions and main melodies you can literally find thousands of practically identical songs. Until recently, copyright holders have avoided lawsuits except in cases of blatant co…

What I can't figure out is how Ed Sheeran's "Shape of You" (TLC - "No Scrubs") and Portugal, The Man's "Feel it Still" (Marelettes - "Please Mr. Postman") flew under the radar. Are the big producers clearing melodies and chord progressions like samples now?

Re: Lana Del Rey, Radiohead, and the Difficulty of Making Original Music

#107

Post by matchagaucho » Sun, Jan 14, 2018, 6:40 PM UTC

cJ0th wrote: post #4

As a hobby music producer I just can't wrap my head around the logic behind copyright infringement. It's so arbitrary. It's illegal to steal a melody but sophisticated chord progressions are fine. It's illegal to copy the text of even the simplest verse but reverse engineering some complex synthesizer sounds is fine. Although I personally strive for it, I don't think originality is a point worth discussing. Music is…

The learning curve for composing original music necessarily is one of emulation and derivation. Producers and Publishers have historically provided the copyright editing and filtering role.

The advent of home recording studios and cheap-to-free distribution channels means more self-produced composers are skipping the editing process.

Re: Lana Del Rey, Radiohead, and the Difficulty of Making Original Music

#108

Post by Joeboy » Sun, Jan 14, 2018, 6:42 PM UTC

jimnotgym wrote: post #104

Joeboy wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a few jazzy exceptions, you can play any pop/rock song by sliding an open E chord up and down the neck and sometimes taking a finger off. All you're saying there is that the song is constructed of major and minor chords, which I'd guess a comfortable 95% of pop/rock songs are (guitar-based or otherwise). Edit: Also you can write any computer program by simply pressing the buttons on a computer keyboard in the ri…

> Also you can write any computer program by simply pressing the buttons on a computer keyboard in the right order But you couldn't write many useful programs by simply typing the top row of the keyboard in ascending order and repeating for 3 minutes 59 > you can play any pop/rock song by sliding an open E chord up and down the neck and sometimes taking a finger off. Exactly, why do we allow them to copyright them? T…

My point is, you're negating any kind of craftsmanship by reducing it to the mechanical actions involved, which is basically equivalent to saying programming is just typing.

I thought your comment was saying that Creep in particular is just a series of major and minor chords, not that songs in general are just series of major and minor chords. If the argument is that songs in general shouldn't be copyrightable then fair enough I guess.

Re: Lana Del Rey, Radiohead, and the Difficulty of Making Original Music

#109

Post by manmal » Sun, Jan 14, 2018, 6:47 PM UTC

jimnotgym wrote: post #7

For anyone who doesn't play the guitar, 'Creep' and the Hollies track is is derived from come feature a rather obvious chord progression. Physically it is the result of sliding an open E chord down the neck to produce higher notes then, la piece de resistance, taking a finger off. Radiohead added a killer feature of turning the gain up on the amplifier for the chorus, genius. It's the kind of thing teenagers everywhe…

(Fellow guitarist here) I agree, there are only so many chord progressions that work in a pop song.. perhaps 30 or even less? But the chords are not the only problem here.

Listen to the voices‘ melodies of „my modern manifesto“ (Lana) vs „I‘m a weirdo“ (Radiohead) - that’s so blatantly copied I almost can’t believe it. If she were a hobbyist, I might believe that her subconscious sneaked it all in without her noticing, but I don’t believe all the producers and test audiences this has been run by haven’t noticed.

Re: Lana Del Rey, Radiohead, and the Difficulty of Making Original Music

#110

Post by was8309 » Sun, Jan 14, 2018, 6:53 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #94

hashkb wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said "there's not many chord progressions to be found inside [a chord progression]". Pop music is free to get more complicated, using reharmonization, voice leading, instrumentation and every other trick in the "real music" book and stop 1/4/5ing us so hard. We (the audience) just love repetitive bullshit too much. It's our fault. Jazz, although built on a (less) restrictive harmonic foundation, tends to not have…

> We (the audience) just love repetitive bullshit too much. It's our fault. Why is it a fault? Music is about what people love. Why should they stretch that to love something else? Because some consider it more "serious"? > Jazz, although built on a (less) restrictive harmonic foundation, tends to not have this problem, because the musicians and the audience are more talented. It tends to have the problem of very few…

how much of what people currently 'love' is based on some natural meritocracy vs decades of big money marketing? It once wasn't a stretch at all for people to 'hear', love, and make a hit of a harmonically complicated song like Ray Charles' version of 'Come Rain or Come Shine', but now we seem incapable of doing so. Do you think there is no chance at all that audiences have been dumbed down?