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Kids, Would You Please Start Fighting

nytimes.com

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Re: Kids, Would You Please Start Fighting

#21

Post by tc7 »

cornyNetHandle wrote: post #8

I showed 'Crockers Rules', after Lee Daniel Crocker, to my mum and my sister over Christmas, as I thought it might help all of us indicate the level of acerbic comment we are currently able to process. "Declaring yourself to be operating by "Crocker's Rules" means that other people are allowed to optimize their messages for information, not for being nice to you. Crocker's Rules means that you have accepted full resp…

> Anyone is allowed to call you a moron and claim to be doing you a favor. (Which, in point of fact, they would be. One of the big problems with this culture is that everyone's afraid to tell you you're wrong, or they think they have to dance around it.)

Is calling someone a moron the best (most information-optimized) way to tell someone they're wrong?

I'm in favor of truth being more valued in this culture, but I don't think being too polite is the root of the problem.

Re: Kids, Would You Please Start Fighting

#22

Post by cornyNetHandle »

platz wrote: post #14
cornyNetHandle wrote: post #8

I showed 'Crockers Rules', after Lee Daniel Crocker, to my mum and my sister over Christmas, as I thought it might help all of us indicate the level of acerbic comment we are currently able to process. "Declaring yourself to be operating by "Crocker's Rules" means that other people are allowed to optimize their messages for information, not for being nice to you. Crocker's Rules means that you have accepted full resp…

How silicon valley.. maximize efficiency at the expense of all culture and social norms! No need for complex social relations, I will process information, more than ever before (because there is so much of it now!), like the great logical-positivist that I am! Moreover, I certainly do not have any political positions embedded in my norms-steamrolling worldview, because all there is, in fact, is information.

More Silicon Glen, if you really care about origin stories. My family tends to conduct a lot of discussion at full volume with lots of swearing, so being able to say, 'fuck off, not playing by Crocker's rules', is pretty useful.

edit: And Crocker himself is an Aussie.

Re: Kids, Would You Please Start Fighting

#23

Post by platz »

_dps wrote: post #20
platz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How silicon valley.. maximize efficiency at the expense of all culture and social norms! No need for complex social relations, I will process information, more than ever before (because there is so much of it now!), like the great logical-positivist that I am! Moreover, I certainly do not have any political positions embedded in my norms-steamrolling worldview, because all there is, in fact, is information.

This seems like an uncharitable read. The whole point of Crocker Rules is that you opt in. No one forces you to accept Crocker Rules (that would indeed be steamrolling). You declare "feel free to say things that might insult me", not "I'm going to assume you don't mind being insulted". Personally, I've found this to be a very useful tool with people who are conflict-avoidant. I tell them "if you're afraid of offendin…

- You are are participant in society, so your preferences indeed affect other people

- the example of the project at work is benign, especially since the outcome doesn't matter to you. What happens then the issues are about personal skin-in-the-game, like someone coming after your means of living, gentrification of your neighborhood, attacking the behavior of your significant other, etc..

Re: Kids, Would You Please Start Fighting

#24

Post by cornyNetHandle »

tc7 wrote: post #21
cornyNetHandle wrote: post #8

I showed 'Crockers Rules', after Lee Daniel Crocker, to my mum and my sister over Christmas, as I thought it might help all of us indicate the level of acerbic comment we are currently able to process. "Declaring yourself to be operating by "Crocker's Rules" means that other people are allowed to optimize their messages for information, not for being nice to you. Crocker's Rules means that you have accepted full resp…

> Anyone is allowed to call you a moron and claim to be doing you a favor. (Which, in point of fact, they would be. One of the big problems with this culture is that everyone's afraid to tell you you're wrong, or they think they have to dance around it.) Is calling someone a moron the best (most information-optimized) way to tell someone they're wrong? I'm in favor of truth being more valued in this culture, but I do…

It isn't about calling someone a moron, it is about being able to respond, "Thanks, I can be fucking stupid at times, can you show me where I am being moronic here?".

It is also about being able top unguard your own language should you know that the other person is operating by the rules, not to be insulting, but so to not worry about it for that conversation and so not having to run that whole level of extra processing.

I tend to swear a lot, as do most of the people I both work and socialise with. If I were to work with people of a more delicate sensibility, conversations would take a lot longer.

Re: Kids, Would You Please Start Fighting

#25

Post by quadcore »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #18
quadcore wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I've submitted a Ask HN: ban nytimes lately - and got banned. Ive also sent an email to moderator asking for a feature that allows the ban of domains per user. Note that I've actually enjoyed this post, but anyway, if someone wants to read nytimes, he knows where to find it. EDIT: what's my opinion precisely you may ask? I think those are not hacker news per the guidelines. They are often general - good - bu…

>if someone wants to read nytimes, he knows where to find it If someone wants to discuss the merits of a particular NYT article they think may be of interest to this community with this community then this is the place to do it.

Sure but lately "of a particular NYT article" has become a lot of articles.

Imagine the front page of HN is filled with articles like that, would you still read HN? I dont think so. Therefore, those articles are at the bottom of the standard and instead of more of them, we want less.

Re: Kids, Would You Please Start Fighting

#26

Post by platz »

tc7 wrote: post #21
cornyNetHandle wrote: post #8

I showed 'Crockers Rules', after Lee Daniel Crocker, to my mum and my sister over Christmas, as I thought it might help all of us indicate the level of acerbic comment we are currently able to process. "Declaring yourself to be operating by "Crocker's Rules" means that other people are allowed to optimize their messages for information, not for being nice to you. Crocker's Rules means that you have accepted full resp…

> Anyone is allowed to call you a moron and claim to be doing you a favor. (Which, in point of fact, they would be. One of the big problems with this culture is that everyone's afraid to tell you you're wrong, or they think they have to dance around it.) Is calling someone a moron the best (most information-optimized) way to tell someone they're wrong? I'm in favor of truth being more valued in this culture, but I do…

The root of the problem is more embedded in 'emotivism' in which ethical sentences do not express propositions but emotional attitudes.

Re: Kids, Would You Please Start Fighting

#27

Post by _dps »

platz wrote: post #23
_dps wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like an uncharitable read. The whole point of Crocker Rules is that you opt in. No one forces you to accept Crocker Rules (that would indeed be steamrolling). You declare "feel free to say things that might insult me", not "I'm going to assume you don't mind being insulted". Personally, I've found this to be a very useful tool with people who are conflict-avoidant. I tell them "if you're afraid of offendin…

- You are are participant in society, so your preferences indeed affect other people - the example of the project at work is benign, especially since the outcome doesn't matter to you. What happens then the issues are about personal skin-in-the-game, like someone coming after your means of living, gentrification of your neighborhood, attacking the behavior of your significant other, etc..

I think we must be interpreting the meaning of Crocker Rules differently.

You say the example I gave is benign — so is it fair to assume you believe that this behavior is useful in at least some cases?

You're right that I have the "luxury" to do so in that situation because the outcome isn't particularly painful.

And you're also right that it would be difficult to opt in to Crocker Rules when discussing something with huge stakes and emotional charge. But that's why it's opt-in ... no one should try to force you to accept it, and you can choose to accept it depending on context.

I would probably not volunteer for Crocker Rules with someone proposing something that would grievously harm my family.

(and just to be clear: I never actually use the term, I always use in-context statements like the one in the example).

Re: Kids, Would You Please Start Fighting

#28

Post by megaman22 »

quadcore wrote: post #11
hmwhy wrote: post #5

I really don't want to say this in an uncivil way but can people please stop spamming Hacker News with these articles full of cherry-picked scientific studies from New York Times or can their posts be automatically weighted less if their goal is to promote articles from NYT? It's really frustrating having to spend a couple of minutes to read seemingly interesting articles only to find out a few minutes later it's pro…

I agree. I've submitted a Ask HN: ban nytimes lately - and got banned. Ive also sent an email to moderator asking for a feature that allows the ban of domains per user. Note that I've actually enjoyed this post, but anyway, if someone wants to read nytimes, he knows where to find it. EDIT: what's my opinion precisely you may ask? I think those are not hacker news per the guidelines. They are often general - good - bu…

At times it's gotten so bad I've been tempted to write a scriptlet that matches nytimes items on the front page to flag and then hide them.

Most of the time, its contentious rehashing of tired old rhetoric, and it crowds out more interesting material.

Re: Kids, Would You Please Start Fighting

#29

Post by platz »

_dps wrote: post #27
platz wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- You are are participant in society, so your preferences indeed affect other people - the example of the project at work is benign, especially since the outcome doesn't matter to you. What happens then the issues are about personal skin-in-the-game, like someone coming after your means of living, gentrification of your neighborhood, attacking the behavior of your significant other, etc..

I think we must be interpreting the meaning of Crocker Rules differently. You say the example I gave is benign — so is it fair to assume you believe that this behavior is useful in at least some cases? You're right that I have the "luxury" to do so in that situation because the outcome isn't particularly painful. And you're also right that it would be difficult to opt in to Crocker Rules when discussing something wit…

I can certainly appreciate the desire to not overreact to every little thing, and try to discuss things calmly, yes

Re: Kids, Would You Please Start Fighting

#30

Post by twobyfour »

hmwhy wrote: post #16
muzani wrote: post #10

This is sort of why me and my wife pick fights with our kids where we can. We stress them to the point of snapping, then cool them down. It feels a little like bullying, but we cut back and emphasize that we still love them. My 5 year old daughter in particular inherits the stubbornness of both her parents. She often she says something she regrets immediately (e.g "I hate you!"), cries on realizing it, but refuses to…

This is from someone on the receiving end and is probably slightly older than your kids—I think it's great that you are teaching your kids how to deal with conflicts and making them think, but I'm not sure that stressing them to the point of snapping is a good thing. My dad did that to me and he still does it occasionally even when I'm "in the right"; I think he probably means well (he claims that he does when I conf…

Yeah, there's a very big difference between friendly debate and bullying. Having been exposed to both from my parents I can assert that one gave me life skills and the other gave me trauma and problems with interpersonal relationships that I'm still recovering from.
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