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In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

economist.com

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Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#71

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #65
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why noone said there was. This is what is known as an analogy.

> It is a decision made to limit your constitutional freedoms due to legal obligations towards the public. That is very much the definition of a criminal case. Your words.

Yes, thanks, but I am aware of the analogies I use.

Are you actually confused about the fact that Facebook is not actually a court, and thus by definition whatever Facebook does is not actually a "criminal case", and that thus my point is not about whether or not what Facebook does would be referred to by a legal scholar as a "criminal case", but about whether it quacks like a criminal case, it walks like a criminal case, therefore, it is a criminal case, in all respects except for exactly the detail that it is handled by Facebook and not by a court, which is exactly the problem that I am pointing out?

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#72

Post by germanier »

hardwires wrote: post #69
Tomte wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing missing for enforcement was Facebook respecting our laws. They simply said „none of our officers is living in Germany, so fuck off“. Now we‘ve added a way to make them hurt. Financially. And I see virtually everyone in the net freedom circles objecting to FB deleting illegal posts. Because our laws are unjust, you see. Only American laws count. We really need to teach Facebook, Twitter, Uber, AirBNB and all…

>> We really need to teach Facebook, Twitter, Uber, AirBNB and all those companies some manners and respect for our society. As a German, let me tell you that this sounds absolutely ridiculous, arrogant and hubristic. You want your German Extrawurst. We're not "one society", not everyone agrees with the tons of laws and regulations we have (mostly on account of special pleading and lobbyism). German users came to Fac…

I don't like all our laws either (this included) but I accept that as a society we must respect and enforce the laws we democratically choose to enact. Rule of law is a fundamental pillar of society and if that is stopped getting accepted by society at large we are in for a bad time. I don't make the laws and Facebook doesn't either.

If Facebook and co. don't want to operate in Germany, they are free to withdraw from that market. They clearly target Germany and there is a lot of money to be made here. If they want that - fine but please respect that we play by our rules here.

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#73

Post by StanislavPetrov »

yorwba wrote: post #16
hh3k0 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are already laws against defamation and "volksverhetzung" Exactly. There was no need for this new internet censorship law at all, for they could've just started applying existing hate speech laws. Instead they introduced this new shady law, which essentially turns social network companies into a part of the judicial branch. The situation now is exactly as you have described it -- the companies fear the German…

> There was no need for this new internet censorship law at all, for they could've just started applying existing hate speech laws. The new law (NetzDG, roughly "network enforcement act" [1]) was intended to facilitate applying existing laws against illegal content, by mandating that every site with > 2 million users needs to have a clear procedure for reporting illegal content. Unfortunately, there are only fines fo…

>The new law (NetzDG, roughly "network enforcement act" [1]) was intended

Intent never matters. What matters is what happens in reality. The road to hell is paved by good intentions.

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#74

Post by robbiep »

b6 wrote: post #45
pluma wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the massive understanding I see when people who don't live in Germany complain about German censorship of speech: It's not about feelings. It's about shaping other people's opinions. If someone says "jack9 is a kiddy fiddler" the damage is not that it might make jack9 upset, the damage is that others might think it's true and take actions that harm him. If someone says "kill the kikes" the damage is not that J…

> Hitler rose to power by manipulating people's sentiments with language. He created scapegoats and convinced people it's okay to channel their hate and frustration towards those scapegoats. People should have the freedom to be persuaded to believe things that you don't agree with. It's OK to have a "wrong" opinion. Let people say what they want and believe what they want. I'm stunned that I still have to defend free…

Do you not think there might be a difference between expressing an opinion and inciting people to violence?

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#75

Post by geococcyxc »

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #57
erAck wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Parking in the wrong spot also doesn't lead to any of that, but it's still a criminal case. It is not, it is an administrative offence.

Which is, in the broad sense, a subcategory of criminal law (as opposed to civil law).

This is at least wrong in Germany, they are handled by different courts, will not show up on criminal record etc., it's more like a civil case, but with the government. Though of course you could park your car so horribly that it might get to be one, there's criminal neglect.

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#76

Post by StreamBright »

thesimon wrote: post #48
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By any normal definition these aren't criminal cases. It is a decision made to limit your constitutional freedoms due to legal obligations towards the public. That is very much the definition of a criminal case. > People don't end up losing jobs, going behind bars, gaining criminal records. Parking in the wrong spot also doesn't lead to any of that, but it's still a criminal case. > They simply cannot spread hate-s…

>It is a decision made to limit your constitutional freedoms Just because your Facebook post is deleted does not mean your constitional right to free speech is limited.

It also does not mean that the issue is fixed.

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#77

Post by b6 »

robbiep wrote: post #74
b6 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hitler rose to power by manipulating people's sentiments with language. He created scapegoats and convinced people it's okay to channel their hate and frustration towards those scapegoats. People should have the freedom to be persuaded to believe things that you don't agree with. It's OK to have a "wrong" opinion. Let people say what they want and believe what they want. I'm stunned that I still have to defend free…

Do you not think there might be a difference between expressing an opinion and inciting people to violence?

Is inciting people to violence really anything other than expressing the opinion that violence is a good idea, and trying to persuade others to agree? Expressing any opinion should be allowed, and trying to persuade anyone of anything should be allowed.

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#78

Post by hardwires »

Tomte wrote: post #70
hardwires wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> We really need to teach Facebook, Twitter, Uber, AirBNB and all those companies some manners and respect for our society. As a German, let me tell you that this sounds absolutely ridiculous, arrogant and hubristic. You want your German Extrawurst. We're not "one society", not everyone agrees with the tons of laws and regulations we have (mostly on account of special pleading and lobbyism). German users came to Fac…

I would have no problem with them deciding it‘s not worth the trouble and banning German users. I have a problem with how they want to make money here, but illegally. And yes, I want rules to be decided democratically. Not by „what does hardwires think about it?“.

>> I would have no problem with them deciding it‘s not worth the trouble and banning German users.

Why should they ban them? They should allow access from all countries. Would you argue that Twitter and Facebook should help enforce all the customs of countries like Iran or North Korea by banning its users? Just get out of the way!

>> I have a problem with how they want to make money here, but illegally.

They aren't making money illegally here. They never have. If they did, law enforcement could stop them and there wouldn't have been a need for this new law.

They can still make money off a German audience without any business presence in Germany. Legally, from the US. Advertisers don't all discriminate.

There's nothing you (or the German government) can do about that, except maybe for censoring the "German version" of the internet. If that's what you want, to the detriment of all German internet users, then please say so.

>> And yes, I want rules to be decided democratically. Not by „what does hardwires think about it?“.

These rules are not decided democratically in Germany, so I don't understand what that has to do with anything.

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#79

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

hardwires wrote: post #69
Tomte wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing missing for enforcement was Facebook respecting our laws. They simply said „none of our officers is living in Germany, so fuck off“. Now we‘ve added a way to make them hurt. Financially. And I see virtually everyone in the net freedom circles objecting to FB deleting illegal posts. Because our laws are unjust, you see. Only American laws count. We really need to teach Facebook, Twitter, Uber, AirBNB and all…

>> We really need to teach Facebook, Twitter, Uber, AirBNB and all those companies some manners and respect for our society. As a German, let me tell you that this sounds absolutely ridiculous, arrogant and hubristic. You want your German Extrawurst. We're not "one society", not everyone agrees with the tons of laws and regulations we have (mostly on account of special pleading and lobbyism). German users came to Fac…

> You want your German Extrawurst.

Now, that is an interesting interpretation of the rule of law if I have ever seen one!

So, in your opinion, having to follow the laws of a country you visit or that you do business in is somehow illegitimate because it's an Extrawurst? Is it your expectation that the US will apply German law to you when you visit the US?

> These are not German companies, they don't need to operate out of Germany,

Well, true?

> so why should they have to follow our every law?

Because they do operate in Germany?

> If anything, you'd be "teaching" them not to bother with Germany, because it's too much of a pain in the ass.

So, we shouldn't apply laws because that could be teaching people to not bother with Germany? So I suppose you think we shouldn't apply laws at all, then? It's not like Germans couldn't end up learning that they should leave the country if they have to follow laws, is it?

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#80

Post by pluma »

b6 wrote: post #45
pluma wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the massive understanding I see when people who don't live in Germany complain about German censorship of speech: It's not about feelings. It's about shaping other people's opinions. If someone says "jack9 is a kiddy fiddler" the damage is not that it might make jack9 upset, the damage is that others might think it's true and take actions that harm him. If someone says "kill the kikes" the damage is not that J…

> Hitler rose to power by manipulating people's sentiments with language. He created scapegoats and convinced people it's okay to channel their hate and frustration towards those scapegoats. People should have the freedom to be persuaded to believe things that you don't agree with. It's OK to have a "wrong" opinion. Let people say what they want and believe what they want. I'm stunned that I still have to defend free…

If you think anything is worth defending at all cost, that should give you pause.

You seem to understand that speech can persuade people of wrong things. Do you think it's possible you've been wrongly persuaded to hold the belief that free speech trumps all?

Maybe the same people that persuade you that you need free speech above all are also those that have the most to gain from being able to persuade you freely of whatever they want?

If you think incitement should not be a crime and likely think libel and slander should not be a crime, where do you draw the line if fee speech trumps all? What about lying under oath?

I'm going to guess (based on your name and the demographics of HN) you're American. Your nation's history is entirely written by itself and its only revolution was a secession which it was able to defeat.

Maybe your country just hasn't learned the lesson Germany has?

Just a thought: https://thenib.com/the-good-war

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