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In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

economist.com

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Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#61

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

vertex-four wrote: post #49
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... and therefore they should be the ones that decide the case?! I'm not sure I follow. Every large corporation makes money off people using their services for illegal purposes, that's not exactly a reason to give them powers to decide legal cases against their customers, is it?

Actually... the most obvious case where large corporations make money off people using their services for illegal purposes - banks - require the bank to shut down the account if it appears the customer might be doing something dodgy. So there's definitely precedent.

Really, that's not exactly true. Normally, they only have to report suspicious behaviour. Many banks also choose to close accounts that they perceive as risky, and that in some ways is similar to this case, and for the same reason equally problematic.

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#62

Post by novalis78 »

Yetanfou wrote: post #31

For those of you who read German the following article sheds a revealing perspective on the effects of these new laws: https://motherboard.vice.com/de/article/kznxz3/vom-netzdg-zu... The leading paragraph claims that "Trolls and right-wing activists conspire through pr0gramm, Discord and Twitter to 'turn the law against hate speech' into its opposite: a tool to denounce left-wingers, women and migrants." In other wor…

Amen...and that's how Bismark's Prussian super government whose bureaucratic super machine was the pride and glory of the Germans turned into Hitler's nefarious totalitarian regime more or less overnight. The same tools that ensure 'order and safety' become tools for 'suppression and conformity'. You would think the Germans, if any, would have learnt what totalitarianism feels like. But no, all they learned is that they just did not have the right totalitarian tools in the first place. It must be a cultural/mentality thing. Those who feel quite uncomfortable under such a system historically leave and tend to end up in... the US.

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#64

Post by rqs »

funkythings wrote: post #6

This comment vastly understates the effects of this law. Social Media companies are scared af to be fined by the German government, so the filters are so strong, that it targets the wrong people. A couple of comedians and satire magazines have been hit, left leaning people as well as right leaning people alike. In general, I don't think it's a good idea for the government to decide what I can post on social media or…

I suggest people who believe censorship can stop hate speech take a little tour on China's social medias.

We had very strong censorship systems built by the government, but does it stopped hate speeches? No.

In fact, if you make people can only post & receives filtered info, then you are actually pushing them to an echo chamber. And an echo chamber is a very nice place for people to fermenting hate speeches (I'm not saying it will, but it could).

So in my opinion, hate speech is bad, but censorship is worse.

The problem must be solved in a different way, without introduce censorship.

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#65

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #58
thesimon wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>powers to decide legal cases against their customers Facebook is free to do whatever they want on their platform. There are no legal cases involved.

Which is why noone said there was. This is what is known as an analogy.

> It is a decision made to limit your constitutional freedoms due to legal obligations towards the public. That is very much the definition of a criminal case.

Your words.

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#66

Post by novalis78 »

b6 wrote: post #45
pluma wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the massive understanding I see when people who don't live in Germany complain about German censorship of speech: It's not about feelings. It's about shaping other people's opinions. If someone says "jack9 is a kiddy fiddler" the damage is not that it might make jack9 upset, the damage is that others might think it's true and take actions that harm him. If someone says "kill the kikes" the damage is not that J…

> Hitler rose to power by manipulating people's sentiments with language. He created scapegoats and convinced people it's okay to channel their hate and frustration towards those scapegoats. People should have the freedom to be persuaded to believe things that you don't agree with. It's OK to have a "wrong" opinion. Let people say what they want and believe what they want. I'm stunned that I still have to defend free…

Exactly. And here I was thinking there was such a thing as 'being an adult' and 'education' and 'freedom of speech' - do we really want to undermine the basic tenets of the Age of Reason? Because if I am not mistaken, censorship was a widespread reality and it took a very long time and a lot of blood to crawl out from underneath it. In other words: Do you think Hitler could have been stopped by not letting 'The Stormer' publish?

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#67

Post by CalRobert »

rqs wrote: post #64
funkythings wrote: post #6

This comment vastly understates the effects of this law. Social Media companies are scared af to be fined by the German government, so the filters are so strong, that it targets the wrong people. A couple of comedians and satire magazines have been hit, left leaning people as well as right leaning people alike. In general, I don't think it's a good idea for the government to decide what I can post on social media or…

I suggest people who believe censorship can stop hate speech take a little tour on China's social medias. We had very strong censorship systems built by the government, but does it stopped hate speeches? No. In fact, if you make people can only post & receives filtered info, then you are actually pushing them to an echo chamber. And an echo chamber is a very nice place for people to fermenting hate speeches (I'm not…

It is possible that the censors in China are more accepting of hate speech than, say, political dissidence.

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#68

Post by icebraining »

thesimon wrote: post #50
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... and therefore they should be the ones that decide the case?! I'm not sure I follow. Every large corporation makes money off people using their services for illegal purposes, that's not exactly a reason to give them powers to decide legal cases against their customers, is it?

>powers to decide legal cases against their customers Facebook is free to do whatever they want on their platform. There are no legal cases involved.

But Facebook is not doing whatever they want - they are doing whatever they believe they need to do to avoid violating the law.

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#69

Post by hardwires »

Tomte wrote: post #43
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, sure, but it didn't go nowhere because a clear procedure for reporting didn't exist, but because the law was not enforced and maybe because some pieces necessary for successful enforcement were missing (which the NetzDG adds, in addition to all the crap that privatizes the law enforcement). Really, I don't see many people in "net freedom circles" who object to forcing Facebook to delete illegal posts. The objec…

The thing missing for enforcement was Facebook respecting our laws. They simply said „none of our officers is living in Germany, so fuck off“. Now we‘ve added a way to make them hurt. Financially. And I see virtually everyone in the net freedom circles objecting to FB deleting illegal posts. Because our laws are unjust, you see. Only American laws count. We really need to teach Facebook, Twitter, Uber, AirBNB and all…

>> We really need to teach Facebook, Twitter, Uber, AirBNB and all those companies some manners and respect for our society.

As a German, let me tell you that this sounds absolutely ridiculous, arrogant and hubristic. You want your German Extrawurst. We're not "one society", not everyone agrees with the tons of laws and regulations we have (mostly on account of special pleading and lobbyism).

German users came to Facebook and Twitter first, not the other way around. These are not German companies, they don't need to operate out of Germany, so why should they have to follow our every law? If anything, you'd be "teaching" them not to bother with Germany, because it's too much of a pain in the ass.

Re: In Germany, online hate speech has real world consequences

#70

Post by Tomte »

hardwires wrote: post #69
Tomte wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing missing for enforcement was Facebook respecting our laws. They simply said „none of our officers is living in Germany, so fuck off“. Now we‘ve added a way to make them hurt. Financially. And I see virtually everyone in the net freedom circles objecting to FB deleting illegal posts. Because our laws are unjust, you see. Only American laws count. We really need to teach Facebook, Twitter, Uber, AirBNB and all…

>> We really need to teach Facebook, Twitter, Uber, AirBNB and all those companies some manners and respect for our society. As a German, let me tell you that this sounds absolutely ridiculous, arrogant and hubristic. You want your German Extrawurst. We're not "one society", not everyone agrees with the tons of laws and regulations we have (mostly on account of special pleading and lobbyism). German users came to Fac…

I would have no problem with them deciding it‘s not worth the trouble and banning German users.

I have a problem with how they want to make money here, but illegally.

And yes, I want rules to be decided democratically. Not by „what does hardwires think about it?“.

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