Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Harvard Study Shows Why Big Telecom Is Terrified of Community-Run Broadband

motherboard.vice.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 151 posts

Re: Harvard Study Shows Why Big Telecom Is Terrified of Community-Run Broadband

#121

Post by qznc »

mnzaki wrote: post #31

We can easily be running our own internet. I recenlty discovered CJDNS[1] (protocol for encrypted p2p address allocation and routing for mesh networks, so essentially OSI layer 3) and project Hyperboria[2] (a community of local WiFi initiatives) while exploring scuttlebutt[3]. Confirmed my suspicions that we could probably be getting waaay better internet connectivity at way lower prices. Decentralized tech is going…

In Germany we have Freifunk [0], a very active community providing free WiFi and meshing in many places.

[0] https://freifunk.net/en/

Re: Harvard Study Shows Why Big Telecom Is Terrified of Community-Run Broadband

#122

Post by mnzaki »

woah wrote: post #115
mnzaki wrote: post #31

We can easily be running our own internet. I recenlty discovered CJDNS[1] (protocol for encrypted p2p address allocation and routing for mesh networks, so essentially OSI layer 3) and project Hyperboria[2] (a community of local WiFi initiatives) while exploring scuttlebutt[3]. Confirmed my suspicions that we could probably be getting waaay better internet connectivity at way lower prices. Decentralized tech is going…

Hey, add http://altheamesh.com to your list. We are creating a system where routers pay each other per byte for bandwidth, and packets are routed along the best and cheapest routes. To address CJDNS, it’s a project that inspired a lot of people, but it’s not actually used for internet access. It’s mostly used by people who are connecting to it over their existing ISPs. This is because it is not good at finding effici…

Cool project (altheamesh.com) but please don't spread FUD about CJDNS...

What do you mean by "internet access"? If you mean access to the "commercial internet" then I assure you a lot of CJDNS peers provide gateways to the "clearnet", as they like to call it, and traffic gets routed to it when needed.

A lot of the nodes are connected over existing infrastructure because infrastructure is hard; but yet there are already several dozens of thousands of wireless mesh nodes running CJDNS. For one example of a network (that is not over existing ISPs): https://www.freifunk-karte.de/ and I'm sure you can google for more. The CJDNS project clearly promotes setting up wireless mesh over going with your existing infra.

I believe the flexibility to be part overlay part independent at the same time is a powerful boon to the project actually. Perhaps that's why there are 100s of thousands of CJDNS nodes around the globe?

Regarding routing, CJDNS uses "source routing" which has various advantages. All the satisfied nodes running CJDNS don't seem to be complaining about the routing efficiency.... BATMAN is superior when nodes are actually changing location (i.e. mobile mesh networks), which is not the intended use-case here (CJDNS nodes are at fixed locations and peering connectiongs are set up manually by exchanging keys out-of-band). Also BATMAN is only a routing protocol whereas CJDNS does address allocation and cryptographic peer auth as well, and the routing protocol can actually be changed anyway.

Re: Harvard Study Shows Why Big Telecom Is Terrified of Community-Run Broadband

#123

Post by mnzaki »

qznc wrote: post #121
mnzaki wrote: post #31

We can easily be running our own internet. I recenlty discovered CJDNS[1] (protocol for encrypted p2p address allocation and routing for mesh networks, so essentially OSI layer 3) and project Hyperboria[2] (a community of local WiFi initiatives) while exploring scuttlebutt[3]. Confirmed my suspicions that we could probably be getting waaay better internet connectivity at way lower prices. Decentralized tech is going…

In Germany we have Freifunk [0], a very active community providing free WiFi and meshing in many places. [0] https://freifunk.net/en/

This was my first ever look at mesh networks, years ago!! Met a bunch of people hacking on it in c-base. Those guys are awesome! And my go-to example for large successful installations of CJDNS over wireless mesh (40k+ nodes AFAIK!). Also I'm under the impression that Freifunk consider themselves part of Hyperboria, but I'm not so sure actually...

People are usually impressed just looking at the network map https://www.freifunk-karte.de/

Re: Harvard Study Shows Why Big Telecom Is Terrified of Community-Run Broadband

#124

Post by mnzaki »

mnzaki wrote: post #122
woah wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, add http://altheamesh.com to your list. We are creating a system where routers pay each other per byte for bandwidth, and packets are routed along the best and cheapest routes. To address CJDNS, it’s a project that inspired a lot of people, but it’s not actually used for internet access. It’s mostly used by people who are connecting to it over their existing ISPs. This is because it is not good at finding effici…

Cool project (altheamesh.com) but please don't spread FUD about CJDNS... What do you mean by "internet access"? If you mean access to the "commercial internet" then I assure you a lot of CJDNS peers provide gateways to the "clearnet", as they like to call it, and traffic gets routed to it when needed. A lot of the nodes are connected over existing infrastructure because infrastructure is hard; but yet there are alrea…

One final note, I personally prefer networks where the incentive to support the network is simply because the members want to see it succeed (mutual benefit all around), not because each node wants to accumulate cryptocurrency.

And it seems to be working just fine without cryptocurrency being involved. Call me naive but I think it's possible to motivate people without money.

Re: Harvard Study Shows Why Big Telecom Is Terrified of Community-Run Broadband

#125

Post by tscs37 »

mnzaki wrote: post #122
woah wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, add http://altheamesh.com to your list. We are creating a system where routers pay each other per byte for bandwidth, and packets are routed along the best and cheapest routes. To address CJDNS, it’s a project that inspired a lot of people, but it’s not actually used for internet access. It’s mostly used by people who are connecting to it over their existing ISPs. This is because it is not good at finding effici…

Cool project (altheamesh.com) but please don't spread FUD about CJDNS... What do you mean by "internet access"? If you mean access to the "commercial internet" then I assure you a lot of CJDNS peers provide gateways to the "clearnet", as they like to call it, and traffic gets routed to it when needed. A lot of the nodes are connected over existing infrastructure because infrastructure is hard; but yet there are alrea…

>What do you mean by "internet access"? If you mean access to the "commercial internet" then I assure you a lot of CJDNS peers provide gateways to the "clearnet", as they like to call it, and traffic gets routed to it when needed.

In this case "internet access" refers to access to the big backbones of ISPs that allow CJDNS peers to exchange data. If you don't have an ISP to connect you up to the larger networks a CJDNS peer will not be able to send any data anywhere.

Or how does CJDNS send data across the transatlantic fibre without an ISP?

Re: Harvard Study Shows Why Big Telecom Is Terrified of Community-Run Broadband

#126

Post by mnzaki »

tscs37 wrote: post #125
mnzaki wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool project (altheamesh.com) but please don't spread FUD about CJDNS... What do you mean by "internet access"? If you mean access to the "commercial internet" then I assure you a lot of CJDNS peers provide gateways to the "clearnet", as they like to call it, and traffic gets routed to it when needed. A lot of the nodes are connected over existing infrastructure because infrastructure is hard; but yet there are alrea…

>What do you mean by "internet access"? If you mean access to the "commercial internet" then I assure you a lot of CJDNS peers provide gateways to the "clearnet", as they like to call it, and traffic gets routed to it when needed. In this case "internet access" refers to access to the big backbones of ISPs that allow CJDNS peers to exchange data. If you don't have an ISP to connect you up to the larger networks a CJD…

It was sorta rhetorical to make a point about 'internet' meaning just interconnected networks :D And any wireless mesh based network will face the same issue (my reply was mainly about FUD against CJDNS, and some implication that http://altheamesh.com/ is superior because ????)

But anyway, access to the commercial internet and sending data over the transatlantic obviously need "normal" ISPs, but as others have noted below (replies to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16135626) that's not the "big issue".

Re: Harvard Study Shows Why Big Telecom Is Terrified of Community-Run Broadband

#127

Post by mnzaki »

dna_polymerase wrote: post #70
mnzaki wrote: post #31

We can easily be running our own internet. I recenlty discovered CJDNS[1] (protocol for encrypted p2p address allocation and routing for mesh networks, so essentially OSI layer 3) and project Hyperboria[2] (a community of local WiFi initiatives) while exploring scuttlebutt[3]. Confirmed my suspicions that we could probably be getting waaay better internet connectivity at way lower prices. Decentralized tech is going…

Regarding a more decentralized web, I recommend this talk: https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-8740-the_internet_in_cuba_a_stor...

This was great; very inspiring!

Also a shame they are not using much better tech (proper mesh protocols like CJDNS), which is already available and successfully deployed.

Re: Harvard Study Shows Why Big Telecom Is Terrified of Community-Run Broadband

#129

Post by VoodooJuJu »

mnzaki wrote: post #31

We can easily be running our own internet. I recenlty discovered CJDNS[1] (protocol for encrypted p2p address allocation and routing for mesh networks, so essentially OSI layer 3) and project Hyperboria[2] (a community of local WiFi initiatives) while exploring scuttlebutt[3]. Confirmed my suspicions that we could probably be getting waaay better internet connectivity at way lower prices. Decentralized tech is going…

Those are some pretty noble ventures, but how can something with a name like scuttlebutt ever hope to become mainstream? There's a p2p torrent video service called bitchute, which is equally noble as the services you mentioned, but it too is just so not-sexy - it'll never make it to the mainstream. I think these services could eventually take off, but the marketing and branding are going to be parts that need the most work.

Re: Harvard Study Shows Why Big Telecom Is Terrified of Community-Run Broadband

#130

Post by amazon_not »

mnzaki wrote: post #83
amazon_not wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mesh networking hasn't really worked out. WISPs, i.e. Wireless Internet Service Providers, do a great job at serving rural (and other) areas.

Hmmm I think it's a bit of a stretch to say mesh networking hasn't really worked out. It just hasn't spread far enough yet. Have you heard of CJDNS[1]? or BATMAN[2]? Hyperboria[3] is multiple sizeable deployments of CJDNS. Maybe you heard of Freifunk[4] in Germany, with over 40k access points so far. [1] https://github.com/cjdelisle/cjdns [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.A.T.M.A.N . [3] http://hyperboria.net/ [4]…

Yes, I've heard of them and others, but I think dboreham already put the matter conclusively at rest:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16138402

Post reply on HN