Firefox bullshit removal • Hacker News Board

Re: Firefox bullshit removal

#121

Post by Momquist » Sat, Jan 13, 2018, 4:03 AM UTC

twhb wrote: post #98

Momquist wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprisingly well, from my own experience. It can even increase your productivity and dicrease distractions: it blocks most ads, suppresses annoying "interactive" features, bans participation in most time-wasting sites (eg. facebook) while still allowing browsing. And of course security. For the very few domains I deem absolutely necessary, I can always whitelist them.

It sounds like the problem is you're spending your time on adversarial websites. Give JS to a skillful developer who shares your goals, and they'll use it to make the website better.

Actually I don't. I never had any account on FB for example, but once in a blue moon I get to visit a public FB page (like a recent blog post posted on HN recently), and having JS disabled let me browse it without worries.

How can a skillful JS developer make the site better for me when I want to avoid ANY extra features and distractions? My personal tastes tend to go not too far off this kind of design: http://bettermotherfuckingwebsite.com/

If this hypothetical developer is really sharing my goals then he'll use the tag, and I'll be happy enough with HTML/CSS.

For text-heavy sites, which are the ones I use the most, JS adds nothing I want: tracking? 3rd-party ads? lazy-loading? comments via disqus? sharing to social media? Thanks, but not for me.

Re: Firefox bullshit removal

#122

Post by cinquemb » Sat, Jan 13, 2018, 4:08 AM UTC

st3fan wrote: post #109

______53 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe you can see the data that's being sent by typing about:telemetry in the address bar.

Or you can put a sniffer on the line, or read the source code, or read the code for the receiving end. Or .. just talk to someone on the team and ask questions. Mozilla is incredibly open and transparent. Anyone can even join team/product meetings on video chat.

>…or read the source code…

Good idea:

Step #1: read modules/libpref/Preferences.cpp

Step #2: default all function calls to `PREF_SetBoolPref` for `kTelemetryPref` with args true to false; remove all `PREF_LockPref` calls with kTelemetryPref

Step #3: ./mach build

Re: Firefox bullshit removal

#123

Post by AndrewCHMcM » Sat, Jan 13, 2018, 4:19 AM UTC

windlep wrote: post #83

Tloewald wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it’s just beholden to one or another of them.

I was under the impression the search deals are merely which engine are the default. How does having the default search be Google make the Mozilla corp beholden to Google?

search engines pay for 80% of mozilla's cheques, so search engines have 80% control over mozilla's income, which is a bit iffy, especially for something meant to be community controlled and directed (non profit open source right?)

Re: Firefox bullshit removal

#124

Post by windlep » Sat, Jan 13, 2018, 4:34 AM UTC

ftlio wrote: post #92

windlep wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was under the impression the search deals are merely which engine are the default. How does having the default search be Google make the Mozilla corp beholden to Google?

If Google is paying what Yahoo was, it's $300 million a year for the default search option on Firefox. Google pays Apple billions to stay the default on the iPhone as well.

Ok, so that makes Mozilla beholden to them how exactly? Is Google calling up Mozilla asking them to do them favors in the product? Are Mozilla engineers being asked to write in special features that Google asks for?

Yes, Google provides 90% of the revenue or somewhere around there. But I still haven't heard how exactly Mozilla is doing special favors to Google or is in some way beholden to it.

Mozilla has a contract with Google to be the default search provider for a set period of years. I have never heard of anything else being in there that allows Google to make any product requests on Mozilla.

How come no one wants to say how exactly Mozilla is doing what Google wants?

Re: Firefox bullshit removal

#125

Post by windlep » Sat, Jan 13, 2018, 4:40 AM UTC

CodeWriter23 wrote: post #84

Tloewald wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it’s just beholden to one or another of them.

> windlep 0 minutes ago [-] I was under the impression the search deals are merely which engine are the default. How does having the default search be Google make the Mozilla corp beholden to Google? Well, when someone pays your paycheck, that makes you beholden to them. Unless you don't want another paycheck. PS I didn't downvote you.

The person that pays my paycheck tells me what to do. The only thing Mozilla was told to do in the contract with Google is to have them as the default search engine.

Besides for the search engine requirement per contract, how is Mozilla's product beholden to Google?

I'm somewhat surprised that was downvoted, as I thought people knew how these contracts were arranged and what they included. They're about the default search engine placement, that's it. Google obviously doesn't get to provide input/requirements into Mozilla product design, marketing, etc.

Re: Firefox bullshit removal

#126

Post by twhb » Sat, Jan 13, 2018, 5:04 AM UTC

Momquist wrote: post #121

twhb wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like the problem is you're spending your time on adversarial websites. Give JS to a skillful developer who shares your goals, and they'll use it to make the website better.

Actually I don't. I never had any account on FB for example, but once in a blue moon I get to visit a public FB page (like a recent blog post posted on HN recently), and having JS disabled let me browse it without worries. How can a skillful JS developer make the site better for me when I want to avoid ANY extra features and distractions? My personal tastes tend to go not too far off this kind of design: http://bette…

> How can a skillful JS developer make the site better for me when I want to avoid ANY extra features and distractions?

devdocs.io uses JS to make an essentially-static website much faster to load and navigate. HN lets you vote without reloading the page. Shopping carts. Webmail. Google Maps. Rich text editors. Navigating around Spotify while the music keeps playing. Feedback on forms without clearing or changing something. Keeping a table of contents in sync with what you're viewing. Keeping changing data correct, like feeds, whether a service is up, whether you're signed in. Chat. Video calls.

And areas not yet widespread. AMP's speed (which would be inoffensive, I think, if intra-site). Layouts more advanced than CSS can express, like a newspaper's or the positioning of plaques at museums. Even smarter data compression for repetitive content.

And areas we're just now getting the tech for, like 3D simulations and peer-to-peer networking.

Re: Firefox bullshit removal

#127

Post by dingaling » Sat, Jan 13, 2018, 6:02 AM UTC

oatmealsnap wrote: post #51

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet organizations went decades making fantastic and ever-improving software without telemetry. What changed? Why would telemetry suddenly become a basic requirement for improvement?

Software is generally a lot more complex these days, and telemetry data is needed to stay competitive and keep improving. Using Firefox as an example, look at how many improvements they have made over the last 5 years. I'm not here to argue whether we need these feature or if Firefox 2 was the last version of Firefox that we needed. Firefox (or Chrome, or whatever) wouldn't look as great as it does today without lots…

On the other hand Mozilla has frequently quoted telemetry as the reason for removing niche or power-user features, for example Tab Groups and Themes. "Low usage" in both cases.

So telemetry doesn't always improve the user experience.

Re: Firefox bullshit removal

#128

Post by geezerjay » Sat, Jan 13, 2018, 6:22 AM UTC

tekromancr wrote: post #118

nitrogen wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the search engine is unhappy, they will pay less money to be the default.

Then another search engine will happily take the that browser's market share.

Which search engine might that be? Last time I looked, Google operated a de facto monopoly.

Re: Firefox bullshit removal

#129

Post by geezerjay » Sat, Jan 13, 2018, 6:25 AM UTC

zachlatta wrote: post #46

stonogo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shitty analogy. Cars provided demonstrable benefits to users. Telemetry does not.

I have worked on products and have made changes based on data I got on how users were using them. Telemetry doesn't replace user feedback or interviews, but it really does help.

I don't believe your personal convenience trumps everyone's right to privacy.

Re: Firefox bullshit removal

#130

Post by geezerjay » Sat, Jan 13, 2018, 6:29 AM UTC

oatmealsnap wrote: post #51

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet organizations went decades making fantastic and ever-improving software without telemetry. What changed? Why would telemetry suddenly become a basic requirement for improvement?

Software is generally a lot more complex these days, and telemetry data is needed to stay competitive and keep improving. Using Firefox as an example, look at how many improvements they have made over the last 5 years. I'm not here to argue whether we need these feature or if Firefox 2 was the last version of Firefox that we needed. Firefox (or Chrome, or whatever) wouldn't look as great as it does today without lots…

> Software is generally a lot more complex these days, and telemetry data is needed to stay competitive and keep improving.

If violating user's privacy is your way to stay competitive, then that's your personal problem. You have no right to spy on everyone just because you have problems staying relevant.