The problem of game developers receiving abusive messages • Hacker News Board

Re: The problem of game developers receiving abusive messages

#141

Post by falcolas » Fri, Jan 12, 2018, 1:54 PM UTC

ManuelKiessling wrote: post #138

user68858788 wrote: post #70

Up until about five years ago, I've only ever wanted to create and share video games. After a couple years doing it independently and getting my first professional game job, gamer gate happened. It's absolutely terrifying to see the lengths at which people will go to make someone's life a living hell. Every industry friend was affected, and reacted mostly by reducing their online presence, and I've done the same. Som…

As someone who heard and read about Gamer Gate, but not more, I'm genuinely curious: What exactly is it that GG did to people working in the industry? My understanding was that the two parties having a fight were female developers and game reviewers on one side and a horde of "young angry white males" on the other (at least if you simplify the whole thing enough). And from this I understood that it was mostly the lif…

Going by memory here, since most of the search results about the topic are very... polarized.

The genesis of the problem, as with so many problems, is that two people were in a short term sexual relationship. The issue with that is the woman made video games, and the man reviewed video games. His review of her video game "Depression Quest" was glowing - a sentiment most people who played the game didn't feel was warranted. The relationship was uncovered, accusations started flying, and a mob was formed on both sides. Those mobs proceeded to do what mobs do - attack each other.

The biggest impact I saw was that people in the industry were not allowed to be neutral, so they just didn't comment. Why interact with the crowd when you're just going to be pilloried in a highly visible fashion by one side or the other?

Re: The problem of game developers receiving abusive messages

#142

Post by TheGrumpyBrit » Fri, Jan 12, 2018, 1:57 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #83

QAPereo wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, if you're a gamer, why be nice to people that are willingly violating an IP that you love? Why? Because it is devoutly to be wished that you’re a human being with a brain, conscience, and at least a scrap of both empathy and perspective. If you’re so antisocial that you honestly believe that what you described merits abuse, threats, doxxing, etc... you shouldn’t be allowed online by your guardian. Messing with yo…

I mean, they had the same choice--not to work on fucking up the IP. And they have the potential to create suffering and annoyance to hundreds of thousands of people, instead of just a few people receiving grumpiness on the net. This is a dynamic that has always existed in art and performance. And for what it's worth, I don't think the option is "be nice" or "hurl abuse"...there is a distribution of behaviors and I'm…

If you feel that somebody "fucked up" a product, don't use that product. It's really that simple, and it can be applied to every aspect of your life, not just games.

Re: The problem of game developers receiving abusive messages

#143

Post by Chris2048 » Fri, Jan 12, 2018, 1:58 PM UTC

ManuelKiessling wrote: post #138

user68858788 wrote: post #70

Up until about five years ago, I've only ever wanted to create and share video games. After a couple years doing it independently and getting my first professional game job, gamer gate happened. It's absolutely terrifying to see the lengths at which people will go to make someone's life a living hell. Every industry friend was affected, and reacted mostly by reducing their online presence, and I've done the same. Som…

As someone who heard and read about Gamer Gate, but not more, I'm genuinely curious: What exactly is it that GG did to people working in the industry? My understanding was that the two parties having a fight were female developers and game reviewers on one side and a horde of "young angry white males" on the other (at least if you simplify the whole thing enough). And from this I understood that it was mostly the lif…

Is it fair to call them "young angry white males", when a fair number of the women and/or journalists are young and white too?

In any case, the case of Anita Sarkesian seems a bit different. And I dont see a great deal many female developers involved; Zoe Quinn appears to be involved more than simply being a female developer.

Re: The problem of game developers receiving abusive messages

#144

Post by sevensor » Fri, Jan 12, 2018, 1:59 PM UTC

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #3

I got a glimpse of this working on my open source Minecraft clone, and it's at least half of the reason that game is sitting on the backburner. Gamers can be a pretty entitled group. I also see this in the rest of my open source work, to a lesser extent. On the whole I probably get slightly fewer "fuck you"s than I get "thank you"s.

Well, as a user of your software, let me adjust the balance by one thank-you: thank you for sway.

Re: The problem of game developers receiving abusive messages

#145

Post by vanderZwan » Fri, Jan 12, 2018, 2:02 PM UTC

gadders wrote: post #123

vanderZwan wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This advice is entirely oblivious to how the creative process works, and why people create games, music, literature or art in the first place. It's also somewhat irritating to me, because it reminds me of how I was constantly told the same thing in the context of being bullied as a child. Which in the end is really about it being easier for adults to make the one bullied kid conform, than the clique of kids who do th…

Well, one view is to consider it victim blaming. Another view is to consider it the offer of a strategy to minimise the upset caused.

> the offer of a strategy to minimise the upset caused.

Ah yes, the "upset caused". Also known as "a complete lack of empathy for or insight into the situation by the person offering the advice, usually due to not really thinking about the problem at all".

At least, that's the only way I can imagine someone thinking to themselves "oh, this kid is being beaten up, his stuff is being destroyed or taken from him. The best strategy is clearly to be less upset about all that"

EDIT: But I guess you were talking about on-line trolling. Again, that advice shows a complete lack of understanding about the creative process. We are a social species, and a large part of why people do any kind of creative activity at all is wanting to share what you made.

Telling people to not give a shit about the response to your work is missing the point of why people do it to begin with.

Re: The problem of game developers receiving abusive messages

#146

Post by _wdh » Fri, Jan 12, 2018, 2:10 PM UTC

monkeywork wrote: post #135

meheleventyone wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this sort of thinking is far too fatalistic and basically throws people who cannot deal with abuse and hate under the bus to boot. The platforms hate and abuse are delivered on are currently under human control. The idea we have no control over whether or not we receive hate and abuse is simply not true. The solution, moderation, isn't even new and is a core feature of all polite online spaces. HN is a good e…

moderation will never stamp out but the tiniest of hate/ignorance that will come. the only thing that will work is removing the one thing the trolls feed on... your reaction.

Moderation is essential because by publicly making an example of trolls, you can change the culture to prevent it. It's the same theory as patching up broken windows to ensure that worse things don't happen.

Re: The problem of game developers receiving abusive messages

#147

Post by Sir_Cmpwn » Fri, Jan 12, 2018, 2:22 PM UTC

sevensor wrote: post #144

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #3

I got a glimpse of this working on my open source Minecraft clone, and it's at least half of the reason that game is sitting on the backburner. Gamers can be a pretty entitled group. I also see this in the rest of my open source work, to a lesser extent. On the whole I probably get slightly fewer "fuck you"s than I get "thank you"s.

Well, as a user of your software, let me adjust the balance by one thank-you: thank you for sway.

I'm glad you like it :)

Re: The problem of game developers receiving abusive messages

#148

Post by monkeywork » Fri, Jan 12, 2018, 2:27 PM UTC

_wdh wrote: post #146

monkeywork wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

moderation will never stamp out but the tiniest of hate/ignorance that will come. the only thing that will work is removing the one thing the trolls feed on... your reaction.

Moderation is essential because by publicly making an example of trolls, you can change the culture to prevent it. It's the same theory as patching up broken windows to ensure that worse things don't happen.

I feel internet shaming is the wrong answer as it's a different side of the same coin. As much as these people are trying to tear down and essentially bully people with words in a negative manner -- those who shame those people end up doing the same thing back, and often take it to extremes where punishment is vastly out of touch with the "crime".

By shining a light on these groups you attract others to it. This is why (I personally feel) the extreme right and extreme left exist today in politics. When you highlight (even to shame) a group it galvanizes them and brings other loonies to their cause.

Re: The problem of game developers receiving abusive messages

#149

Post by _wdh » Fri, Jan 12, 2018, 2:33 PM UTC

monkeywork wrote: post #148

_wdh wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moderation is essential because by publicly making an example of trolls, you can change the culture to prevent it. It's the same theory as patching up broken windows to ensure that worse things don't happen.

I feel internet shaming is the wrong answer as it's a different side of the same coin. As much as these people are trying to tear down and essentially bully people with words in a negative manner -- those who shame those people end up doing the same thing back, and often take it to extremes where punishment is vastly out of touch with the "crime". By shining a light on these groups you attract others to it. This is w…

I'm not talking about shaming people, I think that if you want to have a community that doesn't have abuse then you need the admins to remove or ban the people who post abuse and threats.

Re: The problem of game developers receiving abusive messages

#150

Post by jstewartmobile » Fri, Jan 12, 2018, 2:33 PM UTC

auggierose wrote: post #119

DanBC wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do reviews of academic papers typically come in the form of "Hello, FUCK YOU - people do not read this SJW paper, it is retarded and a piece of crap"?

Different words are used, but the meaning is sometimes the same

"Hello, FUCK YOU" would be an improvement over some of the the passive-aggressive backstabbing I've seen.

It's like, at least you'd know...