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Courts: Violating a Website’s Terms of Service Is Not a Crime

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111–120 of 174 posts

Re: Courts: Violating a Website’s Terms of Service Is Not a Crime

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, they're a combination of it being hard work and there just not being enough of a qualified developer community around Pidgin etc. to put in the effort required. I think people generally underestimate the sheer amount of work involved in reverse engineering an IM protocol, even one that's not particularly well obfuscated.

But what about other projects? Back in the day there were multiple multi-protocol clients. Pidgin (or rather Gaim back then), Trillian, and others; now there's... maybe Franz, as cosmie mentions? Simply saying "Pidgin kind of died off" doesn't seem like enough of an explanation here; why aren't there more such projects popping up?

They never worked properly. It takes years to develop and it's broken anytime the owner will change anything in their implementation.

Even if you had the ultimate multi chat clients, noone cares about it. People use the official client that works just fine.

Re: Courts: Violating a Website’s Terms of Service Is Not a Crime

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what about other projects? Back in the day there were multiple multi-protocol clients. Pidgin (or rather Gaim back then), Trillian, and others; now there's... maybe Franz, as cosmie mentions? Simply saying "Pidgin kind of died off" doesn't seem like enough of an explanation here; why aren't there more such projects popping up?

They never worked properly. It takes years to develop and it's broken anytime the owner will change anything in their implementation. Even if you had the ultimate multi chat clients, noone cares about it. People use the official client that works just fine.

And you've hit the nail on the head: there's just a lot less _demand_ for multi-protocol clients these days. Official clients are much better than they were in the 1990s. Like piracy: undesired use of a protocol is a service problem, one that modern IM clients are actually addressing.

Re: Courts: Violating a Website’s Terms of Service Is Not a Crime

#113
> Rimini, which provides Oracle clients with software support that competes with Oracle’s own services, ...

Oh, the irony.

(For anyone unclear, I'm thinking of Oracle, which provides Red Hat clients with software support that competes with Red Hat's own services.)

In any case, I'm always happy to see Oracle lose a legal suit.

Re: Courts: Violating a Website’s Terms of Service Is Not a Crime

#114

This might be a somewhat unpopular opinion but I think that there should be some way (definitely not through criminal prosecution) for a website or similar to say "You can use my service for free, but only under the following restrictions". Not sure what the "punishment" should be for breaking these rules.

If you don't like a user's request then don't service it and tell them why. You owe them nothing.

A simple 403 FORBIDDEN probably covers it. Or 429 TOO MANY REQUESTS might be appropriate. More bluntly, 204 NO CONTENT exists to tell your client, "I heard you just fine and I have nothing to say to you." Or there's 509 BANDWIDTH LIMIT EXCEEDED.

In any case, the protocols exist to give your client some constructive information in your refusal.

e: sp

Re: Courts: Violating a Website’s Terms of Service Is Not a Crime

#115
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English is certainly imprecise, but I would claim that if I commit some act X, and you have no less property than if I had not committed act X, then whatever else we can say about act X, I fell confident that it is not stealing.

And yet people get all worked up about "stolen" passwords. I still have my password. What's the problem?

> "stolen" passwords

That's also wrong. What actually happened is that a database of password hashes was _copied_ not stolen. So yes your password wasn't stolen.

The problem is a security/privacy problem. If someone made a copy of your house keys, that's a problem, because now they can enter your house. But they didn't steal your keys, they copied them. Same with the password. They didn't steal your password, but they have a copy, so they can use it to log into your accounts.

Re: Courts: Violating a Website’s Terms of Service Is Not a Crime

#116

This might be a somewhat unpopular opinion but I think that there should be some way (definitely not through criminal prosecution) for a website or similar to say "You can use my service for free, but only under the following restrictions". Not sure what the "punishment" should be for breaking these rules.

If you don't like a user's request then don't service it and tell them why. You owe them nothing. A simple 403 FORBIDDEN probably covers it. Or 429 TOO MANY REQUESTS might be appropriate. More bluntly, 204 NO CONTENT exists to tell your client, "I heard you just fine and I have nothing to say to you." Or there's 509 BANDWIDTH LIMIT EXCEEDED. In any case, the protocols exist to give your client some constructive infor…

That only deals with types of requests, or the user making the request etc. It doesn't do anything about how the requested data/info etc is used. I suppose it is closer to a licence agreement. I don't think that there can be any technical way to enforce it only some sort of legal way.

Re: Courts: Violating a Website’s Terms of Service Is Not a Crime

#117
post #95
post #49

The EFF write up requires a bit of a caveat. The EFF states: "Oracle sent Rimini a cease and desist letter demanding that it stop using automated scripts, but Oracle didn’t rescind Rimini’s authorization to access the files outright." That's true, but it would be incorrect to infer that the Ninth Circuit's holding in this case means that such a cease and desist is ineffective to revoke notice for purposes of the CFAA…

It is always a crime to criminally commit a crime.

Is it a problem to outlaw the fact of being smart ?

Re: Courts: Violating a Website’s Terms of Service Is Not a Crime

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't like a user's request then don't service it and tell them why. You owe them nothing. A simple 403 FORBIDDEN probably covers it. Or 429 TOO MANY REQUESTS might be appropriate. More bluntly, 204 NO CONTENT exists to tell your client, "I heard you just fine and I have nothing to say to you." Or there's 509 BANDWIDTH LIMIT EXCEEDED. In any case, the protocols exist to give your client some constructive infor…

That only deals with types of requests, or the user making the request etc. It doesn't do anything about how the requested data/info etc is used. I suppose it is closer to a licence agreement. I don't think that there can be any technical way to enforce it only some sort of legal way.

Yes. Technology to restrict usage sounds a lot like DRM, which has many downsides. Enforcement, ultimately, will rely on good old fashioned copyright and licensing (contract) law.

Re: Courts: Violating a Website’s Terms of Service Is Not a Crime

#120
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A pirated copy doesn’t need to equate to a lost sale in order for it to be stealing. You took something of value that was created or owned by someone else. Whether it’s a physical or nonphysical good is completely beside the point.

#this I can't believe people here don't think it's piracy or stealing, just because it doesn't deprive someone else of their object (as in the case of a physical good). If I took your journal entries from your room, and copied them all, and put them on the internet - that's not stealing, because I returned the journal? No, that's still theft. If someone stole bread, how would you feel about It? Screw that person righ…

> If I took your journal entries from your room, and copied them all, and put them on the internet - that's not stealing, because I returned the journal? No, that's still theft.

No, that's merely duplication and proliferation of media and information into the public domain; information wants to be free & media calls for an audience. The sole concern at that point would be how you gained access to the media - did you cause any provable harm? In other words, let's say you're my friend. You come in to my room, I leave my journal entries open and you surreptitiously copy them while I'm getting coffee for us. You leave the journal undamaged and make your duplicates public. The only harm you did was cause me to not trust you personally and no longer allow you in my home. If, on the other hand, you broke into my home, causing real physical damage in some way, as well as making me fear for my own personal wellbeing, then yes, you have provably harmed me in a legally actionable way.

In either case, nothing was stolen. Emotional and in the latter case physical damages were done because you have duplicated personal information without my consent. A piece of released or published software is decidedly not personal information. In fact, the number of abstraction layers between a user and the creator(s) of a game usually mean that pirated copies cause no emotional harm whatsoever to the author(s).

> If someone stole bread, how would you feel about It? Screw that person right? What if they were stealing the bread from someone who would never notice the loss, and it was for their hungry kids? Suddenly it seems more reasonable.

If you are depriving someone of a basic foodstuff, and their only means of procurement and providence is legally labelled as theft, then you are perpetrating an unjust society. That's my opinion on that.

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