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Two genes in Chromosomes 13 and 14, linked to Homosexuality

nature.com

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Re: Two genes in Chromosomes 13 and 14, linked to Homosexuality

#21

Post by gh02t »

Afforess wrote: post #4

I suspect that as we come to better understand genetics, we (as a society) are going to be more and more uncomfortable with the findings that we uncover. Physics and mathematics have made it long since clear that the universe is deterministic, that all the answers lie in the genes and atoms and equations we are made up of. The implications of this are dire - our society is built on exactly the opposite foundations; l…

Eh, I don't know if you want to take it quite that far. Your genes might predispose you towards one path or another, but there is still free will involved. Complex sociological events like someone committing a criminal act can't just be reduced to "their genes made them do it." There are other factors involved and they are far more complex than what can be reduced to simple genetics.

I think sexual orientation is probably an inherent trait in most people, but to say something like educational success is just a result of genetics and not other factors like teachers, parents etc is simplistic.

Not to mention that the universe is hardly deterministic. Chaos theory and quantum physics show quite clearly that randomness and unpredictability are fundamental.

Re: Two genes in Chromosomes 13 and 14, linked to Homosexuality

#22

Post by epistasis »

peatmoss wrote: post #5

Wow, the bioethical implications of potentially identifying the mechanism of sexual orientation are staggering. I wonder if / how long it will be before parents have the technical means—if not the legal right—to alter their child to be gay or straight through gene therapy. Or even simply selectively bring to term one orientation or the other.

It's unlikely that we'll find definitive predictors for this trait in the next decade, it will just be associations that predict an increase or decrease in the odds. The really strong predictive associations are also easier to find.

Re: Two genes in Chromosomes 13 and 14, linked to Homosexuality

#23

Post by mikekij »

avodonosov wrote: post #16
Afforess wrote: post #4

I suspect that as we come to better understand genetics, we (as a society) are going to be more and more uncomfortable with the findings that we uncover. Physics and mathematics have made it long since clear that the universe is deterministic, that all the answers lie in the genes and atoms and equations we are made up of. The implications of this are dire - our society is built on exactly the opposite foundations; l…

> Physics and mathematics have made it long since clear that the universe is deterministic Have they?

At the macro level.

Re: Two genes in Chromosomes 13 and 14, linked to Homosexuality

#24

Post by justinjlynn »

ethbro wrote: post #17
Afforess wrote: post #4

I suspect that as we come to better understand genetics, we (as a society) are going to be more and more uncomfortable with the findings that we uncover. Physics and mathematics have made it long since clear that the universe is deterministic, that all the answers lie in the genes and atoms and equations we are made up of. The implications of this are dire - our society is built on exactly the opposite foundations; l…

The universe can be deterministic and still practically unknowable. Chaos theory: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

Here's a fun one. A transcendental real number which is not computable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaitin%27s_constant

Re: Two genes in Chromosomes 13 and 14, linked to Homosexuality

#25

Post by ISL »

Afforess wrote: post #4

I suspect that as we come to better understand genetics, we (as a society) are going to be more and more uncomfortable with the findings that we uncover. Physics and mathematics have made it long since clear that the universe is deterministic, that all the answers lie in the genes and atoms and equations we are made up of. The implications of this are dire - our society is built on exactly the opposite foundations; l…

Evolutionary-biologist Will Provine's perspective on free will helped very much to inform my own:

https://evolutionnews.org/2015/09/william_provine/

(Edit: this is apparently an intelligent-design advocacy publication, but it is telling how much his opponents respected him. Provine would have been touched. Here's another link, for context: https://quod.lib.umich.edu/p/ptb/6959004.0007.003/--william-...)

He had a lot of thoughtful and kind things to say, and a lot of courage to back it up. Have a gander at some of his work if it piques your interest.

Thanks for your post -- it led me to the news that he had passed away. He had so long surpassed the odds on his specific guaranteed-to-recur cancer that I almost believed him to be invulnerable.

Thank you, Will. We lead best by example; yours was superb.

Re: Two genes in Chromosomes 13 and 14, linked to Homosexuality

#26

Post by zer00eyz »

peatmoss wrote: post #5

Wow, the bioethical implications of potentially identifying the mechanism of sexual orientation are staggering. I wonder if / how long it will be before parents have the technical means—if not the legal right—to alter their child to be gay or straight through gene therapy. Or even simply selectively bring to term one orientation or the other.

In reading your comment I was struck by the dilemma that this reality would bring. Those most opposed to homosexuality are those most opposed to terminating pregnancy (mostly). It would create quite a quandary for folks who are inclined to hold these two beliefs.

Re: Two genes in Chromosomes 13 and 14, linked to Homosexuality

#27

Post by ISL »

ProAm wrote: post #12
Afforess wrote: post #4

I suspect that as we come to better understand genetics, we (as a society) are going to be more and more uncomfortable with the findings that we uncover. Physics and mathematics have made it long since clear that the universe is deterministic, that all the answers lie in the genes and atoms and equations we are made up of. The implications of this are dire - our society is built on exactly the opposite foundations; l…

> Physics and mathematics have made it long since clear that the universe is deterministic Except none of them have any idea whats really going on...

We know a lot of things. We simply focus all of our effort on the things we do not yet understand.

Re: Two genes in Chromosomes 13 and 14, linked to Homosexuality

#28

Post by brucephillips »

Afforess wrote: post #4

I suspect that as we come to better understand genetics, we (as a society) are going to be more and more uncomfortable with the findings that we uncover. Physics and mathematics have made it long since clear that the universe is deterministic, that all the answers lie in the genes and atoms and equations we are made up of. The implications of this are dire - our society is built on exactly the opposite foundations; l…

> law and order assumes the criminals are acting of free will, education assumes all students are equal, and societal success rests on the notion that all men are equal

None of this is true. We would still imprison those who break the law, despite a deterministic universe, for quarantine, if nothing else.

Re: Two genes in Chromosomes 13 and 14, linked to Homosexuality

#29

Post by epistasis »

Before anybody jumps to conclusions, these are not definitive findings. They are extremely important findings for those performing active research on the topic, but are not of general interest to those who are not performing research. The next steps will be to see if this holds in other cohorts, and in other populations, etc.

Re: Two genes in Chromosomes 13 and 14, linked to Homosexuality

#30

Post by _joe »

Afforess wrote: post #4

I suspect that as we come to better understand genetics, we (as a society) are going to be more and more uncomfortable with the findings that we uncover. Physics and mathematics have made it long since clear that the universe is deterministic, that all the answers lie in the genes and atoms and equations we are made up of. The implications of this are dire - our society is built on exactly the opposite foundations; l…

Physics gave up being "deterministic" (in the sense you used the term in) about 120 years ago.

And mathematics is just a convenient tool with which we describe reality, no one would seriously think today that our math is deeply inscribed in the essence of reality as Galileo thought.

Apart from this, and the fact that the paper shows a very weak statistical significance, I agree fully with your last statement.

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