Live data from Hacker News

Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain

scienceblogs.com

111–120 of 227 posts

Re: Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain

#111

Myers is attacking Kurzweil on the assumption that Kurzweil is actually proposing that the brain's structure should be reverse-engineesed from DNA, which would be intractably hard. Only Kurzweil isn't saying this anywhere. Instead, he seems to be using DNA as a measure for the amount of irreducible complexity that needs to go into a system that will end up with the complexity of a human brain. Basically, we have no i…

Myers is attacking Kurzweil on the assumption that Kurzweil is actually proposing that the brain's structure should be reverse-engineesed from DNA, which would be intractably hard. Only Kurzweil isn't saying this anywhere. Instead, he seems to be using DNA as a measure for the amount of irreducible complexity that needs to go into a system that will end up with the complexity of a human brain. This is like saying tha…

Since, going by your analogy, we're talking about how hard it is to build a machine that will draw us the Mandelbrot set, isn't that exactly the point?

Re: Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain

#112
post #65

I'm a life-long programmer who presently works in software, but I studied biology in college... mostly because I wanted to learn about learning by studying how living systems do it. Biological systems are nothing like anything we would ever engineer, and to understand them we must remove our "anthropocentric engineer goggles" and look at them for what they are. Analogies between biological systems and computers, soft…

DNA is not a program-- it is a molecule, and one that may very well do things at the quantum level that are biologically important.

Sure, but Kurzweil's claim is merely that if DNA can encode everything the brain does with N bits of information, then regardless of how the DNA behaves, we have at least a loose estimate of the level of complexity in the brain. I don't necessarily think that he's right that AI will first be achieved in that manner, but I think I have a bit more faith in human ingenuity than he does, and I think we'll get the software there "by hand" before brain scanning hardware can actually do what he needs it to do.

Of course it's true that the decoding scheme and the dynamics of the end result could provide a whole lot of additional complexity, just like it's possible to build a decompression algorithm that allows us to compress a Linux distribution into 1 byte (put the whole program in the decompressor). But quantum effects or no, it seems extremely unlikely that the physics, chemistry, and biology behind all of this are somehow conspiring, magically tuned to provide an awesomely efficient set of basis functions to encode the algorithms that the brain needs to apply - sure, some parts of the brain's work probably exploit physical coincidences that make the overall job easier, but as far as we know, quantum chemistry doesn't offer a "do intelligence" utility function, that will have to be built up from much smaller sub-units. Far more likely is that the bulk of the brain's function is more or less explicitly coded for somewhere within our DNA.

The brain is not a neural network. It is an interconnected colony of living cells of a variety of types, and it has been shown that all types of cells in the brain are involved in cognition.

"Involved" is a serious weasel word when it comes to the brain, especially when AI is under discussion; everything in your skull is "involved" in cognition, but that doesn't mean it's doing anything particularly important, and it definitely does not mean that every detail of the dynamics is an absolute necessity to obtain Cognition.

But I think we might be arguing different things...

On a related tangent, I've found that many engineers are sympathetic to intelligent design type arguments against evolution. This is because they try to think about biology like engineers and take these machine analogies literally.

[Aside: I don't know too many engineers that buy into intelligent design, but I guess YMMV...]

The mistake that biologists make is that they always assume we're thinking about biology, and that our goal is to understand biological systems.

But when we're talking about AI, the goal is not to understand the brain, it's to figure out how to do something pretty close to what the brain does. Chances are, that's a much simpler goal than figuring out the dirty details about what every cell in the thing does. But it means that we have to be very careful not to get lost in the muck, worrying about the form of the brain's computations rather than the function. This is tricky, because it may be that the way the brain gets things done is not very well abstracted or comprehensible, so it's possible that we'll need to pick the level from which to draw inspiration from the brain very carefully (I think the apparent uselessness of neural nets in strong AI is a good indication that we might need to abstract at some level other than "neuron").

Again, though, Kurzweil has a very specific (and I'd argue, peculiar, at least relative to most people in AI) view on this, and thinks that full scale detailed brain simulations are the way that we need to do this (or at least that this will be the quickest route to the goal). I suspect even he doesn't think we'll simulate the physics of every neuron in detail, though, preferring to instead abstract away the most important bits of functionality.

Re: Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain

#113
post #65

I'm a life-long programmer who presently works in software, but I studied biology in college... mostly because I wanted to learn about learning by studying how living systems do it. Biological systems are nothing like anything we would ever engineer, and to understand them we must remove our "anthropocentric engineer goggles" and look at them for what they are. Analogies between biological systems and computers, soft…

relevant to your comment is POSIWID!: the Purpose Of a System Is What It Does

Re: Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain

#114
post #65

I'm a life-long programmer who presently works in software, but I studied biology in college... mostly because I wanted to learn about learning by studying how living systems do it. Biological systems are nothing like anything we would ever engineer, and to understand them we must remove our "anthropocentric engineer goggles" and look at them for what they are. Analogies between biological systems and computers, soft…

DNA is not a program-- it is a molecule, and one that may very well do things at the quantum level that are biologically important. Sure, but Kurzweil's claim is merely that if DNA can encode everything the brain does with N bits of information, then regardless of how the DNA behaves, we have at least a loose estimate of the level of complexity in the brain. I don't necessarily think that he's right that AI will firs…

"DNA can encode everything the brain does with N bits of information"

It doesn't directly encode the structure of the brain. Development is required.

"Involved" is a serious weasel word when it comes to the brain, especially when AI is under discussion; everything in your skull is "involved" in cognition, but that doesn't mean it's doing anything particularly important, and it definitely does not mean that every detail of the dynamics is an absolute necessity to obtain Cognition. But I think we might be arguing different things...

We are arguing different things. My point is that you can't write a little equation for a neuron (which is an entire living cell!) and wave your hands and say "done!"

Kurzweil is way way way too hand-wavey for me.

Re: Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain

#115
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting close would take an advancement in computer technology of the magnitude of the transition from vacuum tubes in individual boxes to a 32nm Core i7. ...so about 35 years? ;)

Maybe, though I am concerned about processing power stagnating. Advancement is governed by economics as well as technical capability. There must be demand for new technology, or a field stagnates. Witness aviation as an example... utterly stagnant outside of military niche applications. People seem to no longer want faster and faster computers, and the market seems to be moving toward lighter-weight lower-power porta…

You are correct for consumer electronics. But commercial and scientific computing are driving increases computational power and density that do not seem to be letting up. In the 4 years I have worked in hosting the amount of server you can get in a 4u box has gone from 8 2.5GHz cores to 24 2.5GHz cores and from 32GB to 256GB. The storage requirements and compute requirements for applications are also increasing substantially.

Re: Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Myers is attacking Kurzweil on the assumption that Kurzweil is actually proposing that the brain's structure should be reverse-engineesed from DNA, which would be intractably hard. Only Kurzweil isn't saying this anywhere. Instead, he seems to be using DNA as a measure for the amount of irreducible complexity that needs to go into a system that will end up with the complexity of a human brain. This is like saying tha…

Since, going by your analogy, we're talking about how hard it is to build a machine that will draw us the Mandelbrot set, isn't that exactly the point?

If, by "draw us the Mandelbrot set" you mean the whole set, and not tiny, low-resolution approximations of the set then yes.

Re: Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain

#117
post #65

I'm a life-long programmer who presently works in software, but I studied biology in college... mostly because I wanted to learn about learning by studying how living systems do it. Biological systems are nothing like anything we would ever engineer, and to understand them we must remove our "anthropocentric engineer goggles" and look at them for what they are. Analogies between biological systems and computers, soft…

DNA is not a program-- it is a molecule, and one that may very well do things at the quantum level that are biologically important. Sure, but Kurzweil's claim is merely that if DNA can encode everything the brain does with N bits of information, then regardless of how the DNA behaves, we have at least a loose estimate of the level of complexity in the brain. I don't necessarily think that he's right that AI will firs…

Sure, but Kurzweil's claim is merely that if DNA can encode everything the brain does with N bits of information, then regardless of how the DNA behaves, we have at least a loose estimate of the level of complexity in the brain.

The problem is that DNA is not sufficient. Organisms don't grow from naked DNA in a vacuum; the DNA is always contained within a cell which is enclosed within a more complex bio structure (egg, womb, etc) which may be contained within the parent organism in the case of mammals.

You need all of this information plus knowledge of the various interactions of the different environments to pursue Kurzweil's approach.

The universe of necessary and sufficient information is much, much larger than the 3 billion base pairs in your DNA.

Re: Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain

#118
post #94
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protein folding is suspected to be an NP-complete problem http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/cmb.1998.5.27 >, so it seems to me that having reason to believe it will someday be solved equals having reason to believe that someday NP-complete problems can be computed in polynomial time. Alternatively, you might hope for a domain-specific approximative algorithm, but this seems tricky, too, since mis-folded pr…

Saying it's NP-complete doesn't prove we can't solve it well enough for simulation. As a physical problem become "pathologically NP", Nature becomes non-deterministic too; it seems unlikely that Nature will make extensive use of a protein that doesn't reliably fold in a certain way, or some small constrained set of ways. See http://www.scottaaronson.com/papers/npcomplete.pdf

Not that I wouldn't like to be as optimistic, too, but Nature does seem to have made enough use of unreliably folding proteins to have come up with BSE, Parkinson's disease, and some others http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_folding#Incorrect_prote... >.

I'm a big fan of Scott Aaronson, too, btw :-) Here's a pic of him demoing the soap bubbles experiment he refers to in that paper you linked to http://www.scottaaronson.com/soapbubble.jpg >.

Re: Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain

#119
post #87

Myers is attacking Kurzweil on the assumption that Kurzweil is actually proposing that the brain's structure should be reverse-engineesed from DNA, which would be intractably hard. Only Kurzweil isn't saying this anywhere. Instead, he seems to be using DNA as a measure for the amount of irreducible complexity that needs to go into a system that will end up with the complexity of a human brain. Basically, we have no i…

The argument Myers is making is that while the DNA might be the input to the system, the total amount of data in the system is that input plus the rules around how that input is interpreted/works. Those rules (for example around protein folding) are currently encoded in biological systems as the laws of physics, more or less, but they're insanely complicated and currently unknown. So the point is that perhaps if you…

1) An estimate of complexity is what it is - an estimate of complexity. It's not a claim that the way to achieve AI is to figure out the details of the particular encoding that nature ended up using, so the precise nature of those rules is not something we care about.

2) While it's true that those runtime rules (which we can kind of consider as the "interpreter" for our DNA) are extremely complex, this has almost zero bearing on the informational content in our DNA that is put towards creating the "intelligence algorithm", whatever that is. Sure, there's probably a bit of extra compression based on the fact that the physics allows some actions to be "built in", but unless you believe that DNA is physically optimized to make intelligent computer construction very concise, the logical content of these computations is probably explicitly "written" in.

And it's hard to believe that DNA is somehow specifically optimized for intelligence, because it was first used in completely unintelligent creatures and appears in exactly the same form now.

Now, it may be the case that DNA's physics are tailor-made to efficiently code for useful physical structures. But intelligence is a level of abstraction above that, and we're all but guaranteed that very little compressibility exists in the "language" for such higher level constructs.

What would an argument be without a strained analogy: if you're writing a complex web application, the size of your application is roughly independent (within an order of magnitude, for sure) of the architecture that it will ultimately run on (where by "size of application" I mean the size of everything that it takes to run it, interpreters, frameworks, etc.). Sure, the binary size might be slightly different depending on whether you're writing it for ARM, PPC, x86, etc., but not hugely different.

We would be extremely surprised if on three platforms your executable weighed in at 10 mb and on a fourth (which had a few different machine level instructions) it compiled down to 10 kb - the only way we could imagine that happening is if someone somehow "cheated" and embedded large parts of your actual application logic into the processor, adding specialized Ruby on Rails instructions to the machine code, or something like that. :)

Encoding and dynamics details may make differences in compressibility, but past an order of magnitude, you're really talking about "cheating", and it's an Occam's Razor problem to assume that nature optimized in such a way for intelligence...

Re: Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain

#120
post #65

I'm a life-long programmer who presently works in software, but I studied biology in college... mostly because I wanted to learn about learning by studying how living systems do it. Biological systems are nothing like anything we would ever engineer, and to understand them we must remove our "anthropocentric engineer goggles" and look at them for what they are. Analogies between biological systems and computers, soft…

DNA is not a program-- it is a molecule, and one that may very well do things at the quantum level that are biologically important. Sure, but Kurzweil's claim is merely that if DNA can encode everything the brain does with N bits of information, then regardless of how the DNA behaves, we have at least a loose estimate of the level of complexity in the brain. I don't necessarily think that he's right that AI will firs…

if DNA can encode everything the brain does with N bits of information, then regardless of how the DNA behaves, we have at least a loose estimate of the level of complexity in the brain

Non sequitur.

Solution to unified field theory. That's about 32 bytes of information, uncompressed. There, since that statement is so low in information content, it must be easy to find. We have a loose estimate of it's complexity with my statement, right?

Post reply on HN