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Building for the Blockchain

blog.ycombinator.com

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Re: Building for the Blockchain

#11

Post by CiPHPerCoder »

People are trying to solve a lot of interesting problems with blockchain, but I fear it's become the ultimate shoehorn solution for the modern era. See also: https://tonyarcieri.com/on-the-dangers-of-a-blockchain-monoc...

I've had meetings with prospective clients that opened with, "We have $problem, can we use blockchain to solve it?" where anything that doesn't qualify as a blockchain is cast to the wayside because it doesn't scratch that buzzword itch.

(Amusingly, I've witnessed one pitch where the person called it "bitchain" and it sounded like "ba-ching!" and I was waiting for the follow-up to what I thought was onomatopoeia for a cash register sound. I've since learned to not abbreviate cryptography as "crypto" lest I attract sketchy prospects.)

A lot of the problems that you might want to solve with a blockchain probably doesn't need a blockchain. A distributed, append-only cryptographic ledger will suffice. To wit: https://paragonie.com/blog/2017/07/chronicle-will-make-you-q...

Re: Building for the Blockchain

#12

Post by jaequery »

Where I can see blockchain being more 'actually' useful is in simple things, like verifying the integrity of the app (or anything really), ala checksum hashes.

It makes a lot of sense for us to store them on the blockchain rather than hosting it on a webpage.

Re: Building for the Blockchain

#13

Post by api »

solotronics wrote: post #7
api wrote: post #2

Yet so far I still see almost nothing on the block chain (beyond its core currency use case) that is useful outside the domain of block chain stuff. The only exception is things like Sia, and that's not cost or convenience competitive with Amazon S3 or Backblaze. Where is the value here? When I visited this I was expecting to see at least something about building something useful for... something... Building what for…

its only a matter of time before bank settlement and cross border payments are all done on blockchain. I would think that asset tracking and real esate deeds are a great application. Asking why these things aren't on the blockchain yet is like asking why businesses aren't using the internet in the 1970s.

That's the core use case I mentioned: currency and wire transfer. I've used it for that and the value is there.

I will add though-- the major reason cryptocurrency has so much value in that space is that the alternatives (bank wire, Western Union, etc.) are so terrible from a UX perspective. If those alternatives vastly streamlined their UX I think a lot of the value in cryptocurrency in the developed world might disappear. It might still have value in countries without good and reasonably stable banking systems.

Re: Building for the Blockchain

#14

Post by api »

goodroot wrote: post #9
api wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm really looking for (and I've been asking this question in a lot of places recently) is some concrete examples of real world cases where this tech is being... you know... used as something other than just novelty or tinkering. Block chain centric use cases don't count since those just reinforce my worst case hypothesis-- that cryptocurrency is a financial MMORPG and a pure value-free bubble. What's an actual…

You might like this example, it puts decentralized smart-contracts in a digestible context: https://germanylandofinnovation.com/2016/10/19/german-compan... -- Under the prototype, users interact with the charging station by agreeing to a smart contract that is programmed on top of the Ethereum network. Prior to charging, the user makes a deposit on the network, which is later released after the transaction is complet…

How is paying for electricity with Ethereum better for me than paying with a card? I don't see the advantage.

When VisiCalc was demo'ed there were people lined up literally pulling out their checkbooks and offering to pay almost limitless amounts of money for the prototype. Spreadsheets had insane value to accountants.

Other than the core use case of currency that I mentioned, where are the "killer apps" for block chain? A lot of it looks like minor and dubious improvements or solutions in search of a problem. Neither of those comes close to justifying the insane amount of money and resources being poured into this area.

Re: Building for the Blockchain

#15

Post by arkona »

CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #11

People are trying to solve a lot of interesting problems with blockchain, but I fear it's become the ultimate shoehorn solution for the modern era. See also: https://tonyarcieri.com/on-the-dangers-of-a-blockchain-monoc... I've had meetings with prospective clients that opened with, "We have $problem, can we use blockchain to solve it?" where anything that doesn't qualify as a blockchain is cast to the wayside because…

> A distributed, append-only cryptographic ledger

Pardon my ignorance, but isn’t that what a blockchain is?

Re: Building for the Blockchain

#16

Post by CPLX »

0x4f3759df wrote: post #10
api wrote: post #2

Yet so far I still see almost nothing on the block chain (beyond its core currency use case) that is useful outside the domain of block chain stuff. The only exception is things like Sia, and that's not cost or convenience competitive with Amazon S3 or Backblaze. Where is the value here? When I visited this I was expecting to see at least something about building something useful for... something... Building what for…

Why use a blockchain instead of a database? Because multiple organizations are involved and each wants to control the database. If a thing moves across multiple organizations then you can make a case for a blockchain application, logistics is an obvious example, but there are others like asset (expensive paintings / vintage wine) provenance. https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/15/ups-bets-on-blockchain-as-...

Sure. But this has been going on for awhile, what's the example of someone actually doing any of these things in a way that creates real efficiency?

Re: Building for the Blockchain

#17

Post by CiPHPerCoder »

arkona wrote: post #15
CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #11

People are trying to solve a lot of interesting problems with blockchain, but I fear it's become the ultimate shoehorn solution for the modern era. See also: https://tonyarcieri.com/on-the-dangers-of-a-blockchain-monoc... I've had meetings with prospective clients that opened with, "We have $problem, can we use blockchain to solve it?" where anything that doesn't qualify as a blockchain is cast to the wayside because…

> A distributed, append-only cryptographic ledger Pardon my ignorance, but isn’t that what a blockchain is?

A distributed ledger doesn't necessarily mean a decentralized one.

This is a handy reference to decide if you're building a cryptographic ledger or a blockchain: https://gist.github.com/joepie91/e49d2bdc9dfec4adc9da8a8434f...

Re: Building for the Blockchain

#18

Post by 0x4f3759df »

CPLX wrote: post #16
0x4f3759df wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why use a blockchain instead of a database? Because multiple organizations are involved and each wants to control the database. If a thing moves across multiple organizations then you can make a case for a blockchain application, logistics is an obvious example, but there are others like asset (expensive paintings / vintage wine) provenance. https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/15/ups-bets-on-blockchain-as-...

Sure. But this has been going on for awhile, what's the example of someone actually doing any of these things in a way that creates real efficiency?

I feel like you are moving the goalpost.

edit: If UPS doesn't count then nothing is going to count.

Re: Building for the Blockchain

#19

Post by CPLX »

api wrote: post #13
solotronics wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its only a matter of time before bank settlement and cross border payments are all done on blockchain. I would think that asset tracking and real esate deeds are a great application. Asking why these things aren't on the blockchain yet is like asking why businesses aren't using the internet in the 1970s.

That's the core use case I mentioned: currency and wire transfer. I've used it for that and the value is there. I will add though-- the major reason cryptocurrency has so much value in that space is that the alternatives (bank wire, Western Union, etc.) are so terrible from a UX perspective. If those alternatives vastly streamlined their UX I think a lot of the value in cryptocurrency in the developed world might dis…

Are you at least somewhat aware that the user experience of cryptocurrency is currently abysmal, and worsening?

Re: Building for the Blockchain

#20

Post by nileshtrivedi »

jaequery wrote: post #12

Where I can see blockchain being more 'actually' useful is in simple things, like verifying the integrity of the app (or anything really), ala checksum hashes. It makes a lot of sense for us to store them on the blockchain rather than hosting it on a webpage.

You need blockchain only when you want to prevent double spending of _something_. A linked list where only one node can have a valid pointer to the previous node.

For checksum hashes, unless double spending is a problem, IPFS will suffoce.

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