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Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of housing in San Francisco

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Re: Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of housing in San Francisco

#141
The problem here is the character of current housing markets causing the progress and poverty paradox. Rent control then is just (quite unfortunate) measure to mitigate the poverty problem when rents rise rapidly.

The paradox occurs because rent prices are much more flexible than peoples' income. If you have rapid increase in wages (like in SF area), then landlords match the increase by raising rents even faster than the wages rose and the tenants don't get no better services nor quality of living. Just higher prices they have to pay.

That supply and demand determine the price is like describing gravity as "things just fall to the ground when dropped". While true, these tell you nothing about how fast things fall nor where the market prices stabilize.

To see where rent levels come from and why they match up with general income level for a given locality, look at David Ricardo's "law of rent" (introduced in 1809), which tells you exactly that. It basically tells you that rents increase exactly to the level that wages increased. Therefore eating away all technological progress and only giving you higher rents and house prices. This is the progress and poverty paradox. The harder the society works, the larger wealth gap and poverty.

Failing to understand the cause of all this people just slap some random regulation to alleviate the problem - in this case the rent control.

--- To observe the law of rent, simply look at the fact that rents almost exactly match some general level of income of majority of bottom workers so that they barely get by and don't save a cent. Any excess goes to rent.

Just plot wage vs rent of any city on earth and you'll see it.

Re: Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of housing in San Francisco

#142
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But rent control only benefits the renters already in place. It hurts new renters to the area, by driving up costs. You've got to address a moral judgement you've implicitly made: What makes the current renters of a city more deserving than the future renters who might move to the city?

To be fair, GP did address that point: the current renters of a city have votes [in local government], and the future renters do not.

Let's apply that same logic to refugees (red-lining, migrant workers, or really any topic of im/e/migration). Current citizens have votes and decide that refugees aren't welcome, refugees don't have votes and so cannot be welcomed.

Re: Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of housing in San Francisco

#143
post #91

Another second-order effect of rent control is increased traffic. Suppose you have two residents with significantly below-market-rate housing at the same quality level, one in downtown SF and another in Mountain View. The former starts a new job at Google in Mountain View, the latter starts a new job at a trendy start-up in downtown SF. Since they're paying significantly below market rate, they're unable to trade apa…

That's a really great insight. The fact that such good intentions often lead to bigger problems is what concerns me about UBI - it will surely have huge second-order effects. I'm not sure what they will be, but rent control in a city is tiny compared to the effect a universal change like UBI would introduce.

[deleted]

Re: Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of housing in San Francisco

#144
post #91

Another second-order effect of rent control is increased traffic. Suppose you have two residents with significantly below-market-rate housing at the same quality level, one in downtown SF and another in Mountain View. The former starts a new job at Google in Mountain View, the latter starts a new job at a trendy start-up in downtown SF. Since they're paying significantly below market rate, they're unable to trade apa…

That's a really great insight. The fact that such good intentions often lead to bigger problems is what concerns me about UBI - it will surely have huge second-order effects. I'm not sure what they will be, but rent control in a city is tiny compared to the effect a universal change like UBI would introduce.

In an ideal world you'd run the experiment and see how it goes. In the real world you'll probably be stuck with it regardless of the outcome, because there will be a concentrated group who will be strongly against ending it, whereas the negative consequences will be diffuse.

That rent control is bad is not exactly a new finding. This has been known to economists across the political spectrum for decades.

Re: Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of housing in San Francisco

#145

Another second-order effect of rent control is increased traffic. Suppose you have two residents with significantly below-market-rate housing at the same quality level, one in downtown SF and another in Mountain View. The former starts a new job at Google in Mountain View, the latter starts a new job at a trendy start-up in downtown SF. Since they're paying significantly below market rate, they're unable to trade apa…

Are there that many people in rent-controlled apartments for this to be a serious enough issue or cause of traffic?

Re: Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of housing in San Francisco

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of stickiness and inelasticity when it comes to housing, especially when other factors such as kids and schools and spouse's commute and all come up.

Can a free-marketeer address this? I thought stuff like this were obvious rebuttals but look at the top posts in this comment section. It's starting to feel like articles and posts like this aren't driven by discussion or curiosity but just political fights.

The major issue is that the market is NOT free. This market can't ever be free. There are building codes, zoning, planning, approvals, etc. All of that red tape related to building the level and quality of housing that an area needs already distorts the market.

Thus the underlying issue is that there has not been proper correction and guidance from the governance structures established by the people in the area; mostly because the rising home prices and status-quo of neighborhoods generally benefit those people.

It's going to take state or federal level correction to fix this issue and the "best" way of doing that would be to sour the use of housing as an investment.

Re: Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of housing in San Francisco

#147
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But rent control only benefits the renters already in place. It hurts new renters to the area, by driving up costs. You've got to address a moral judgement you've implicitly made: What makes the current renters of a city more deserving than the future renters who might move to the city?

To be fair, GP did address that point: the current renters of a city have votes [in local government], and the future renters do not.

I feel this response is confusing right with might. Just because some group has the political might to make laws that benefit them does not make those laws right, does it?

Re: Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of housing in San Francisco

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heinlen in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" introduces the idea of a legislature with 2 chambers. One for creating laws and the other for getting rid of them. The threshold for creating them being higher. The way it is now, everything is geared towards "doing" things, and credit is received for "accomplishments". Its usually much harder to undo things. It would be refreshing to have specialists in undoing things.

IMO, there should be automatic sunset provision in every law passed in this country, like the one existed for the Patriotic Act, and reviewed, renewed or expired every 5 or 10 years.

Great, now there's a legislative breakdown on the week that that the murder law had to be re-passed, and it's legal until Congress resumes...

Re: Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of housing in San Francisco

#149

Another second-order effect of rent control is increased traffic. Suppose you have two residents with significantly below-market-rate housing at the same quality level, one in downtown SF and another in Mountain View. The former starts a new job at Google in Mountain View, the latter starts a new job at a trendy start-up in downtown SF. Since they're paying significantly below market rate, they're unable to trade apa…

Are there that many people in rent-controlled apartments for this to be a serious enough issue or cause of traffic?

[deleted]

Re: Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of housing in San Francisco

#150
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having read up on some of the building purchases in my own neighborhood (East Village of NYC), it seems that rent control is bad for honest landlords and good for the slimey ones who are willing to "encourage" people to leave. And thanks to Coase's theorem the building sales are usually in that direction.

Wouldn't the fix be to stop the slimey ones from "encouraging" people to leave in the first place? It sounds like blaming the game rather than striking out against those who abuse it.

Is that possible?

The good landlords aren't pulling out every technically not illegal trick to make more money because they value things more than just being in the clear legally, but they do value being in the clear legally. The slimy landlords don't care about other effects, as long as they are legally in the clear. If you increase punishment/enforcement of the laws, you will hit both the good and the slimy landlords harder, with the slimy ones still taking a lead because they don't care about factors like a good reputation or having a clean conscious (yes, I'm somewhat stereotyping the good and slimy groups).

That the slimy ones know and practice working around the law may even mean that the good landlords get hit harder from a crackdown. In some way the government can't focus on the slimy landlords because by their very being they avoid government focus more than the good landlords.

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