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James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

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Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#381

Post by vorotato »

dmitrygr wrote: post #143
vorotato wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, discrimination against men, and or white people is illegal. They can show though that they hire plenty of white men. You are correct in California you cannot discriminate against employees due to politics, however I'm sure they'd be able to show they hire plenty of republicans. It is also an uphill battle for Damore since he'd basically be claiming that he was discriminated against at the same time as arguing th…

> however I'm sure they'd be able to show they hire plenty of republicans Discrimination is not just about hiring but also about workplace comfort. And let me tell you, being a non-democrat at google is NOT comfortable! VERY not comfortable!

IANAL, but as I understand it, it depends on what causes the discomfort. If your discomfort comes from the existence of other protected classes, like a baptist in a den of atheists then it's tough beans. If however you can evidence that they've created a hostile environment for you outside of your relation to other protected classes then yes that makes sense.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#382

Post by ng12 »

praestigiare wrote: post #375
dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #296

Honestly, this whole thing is just ugly. I read what he wrote. It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth. Before you downvote/call me a Nazi, I'm a mixed race woman in tech. I definitely see people hired just because of their minority status. I also see people hired who are minorities but also great at their job. It's not a binary pattern. But those who are hired just because they are a POC or female, yet are…

You claim that there is a pattern of bad diversity hires, but your anecdotes are just as easily explained by confirmation bias: You see an incompetent male engineer, and you write him off as an idiot and forget him. You see an incompetent woman, and she becomes evidence that there is a problem with diversity programs. You remember evidence that supports your narrative. Obviously my statement is not evidence either. I…

> you write him off as an idiot and forget him

Not really. I have a lot of faith in our engineering staff so I wonder how he got hired and how he avoids getting fired. The uncomfortable truth is that if he was an employee that "looked good" I would know the answer to those questions.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#384

Post by oh_sigh »

vorotato wrote: post #117
oh_sigh wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's beloved by a certain right-leaning or libertarian bent portion of the tech world, and everyone else except for maybe Google's lawyers have forgotten about him. So it seems like he is in a better place now than simply being a midlevel employee in MegaCorp

Yes from a certain angle it's a PR win/win. However if he actually pursues a lawsuit with his money he's with near certainty going to be the loser.

I really doubt it is with his own money. Google pays pretty well, but he was only employed for a couple of years outside of school, so I doubt he has millions just sitting around. Almost certainly this case is taken on a contingency basis or they are using crowdsourced funds.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#385

Post by vorotato »

iamatworknow wrote: post #256
vorotato wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He'll have to explain that to a jury, and I've read the memo that claim is not abundantly clear.

Google will settle this long before it goes to a jury.

Argument by assertion, bold.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#386

Post by sp332 »

zamalek wrote: post #337
sp332 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making someone question whether they are qualified is better than not hiring them at all. Quotas are useful if you have reason to believe that your hiring process is biased and you are missing out on qualified candidates. That way you're not passing up too many candidates from specific groups that you're having a hard time characterizing.

Quotas do have their place for instigating change, to more correctly state my views (which are incredibly complex, just like the subject is): I think that they rapidly outgrow their usefulness. If you have women in hire/fire positions, in theory the bias should work itself out. It probably wouldn't in reality. It's a nasty situation. We want to make progress as society, which means quantifying that progress (quotas m…

> Are we still in the 1990's with a social equality facade?

No, things have gotten worse since the 90's. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/27/women-in-tech_n_69... Women have a >40% quit rate, so it's not just the hiring practices which need work. https://www.ncwit.org/sites/default/files/resources/womenint... (PDF)

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#387

Post by wellboy »

ebbv wrote: post #351
wellboy wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more highly intelligent men than women, because for men, the distribution is higher, look it up.

When you get a result like that you should question the measuring tool. IQ tests are horseshit.

It's a very well researched issue https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_intellige...

There are more dumber men and more smarter men than women.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#388

Post by moduspol »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #309
moduspol wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't say he believed that. He said he believed it's possible it's one of several factors, and only at a macro level ("generally, women prefer not to do X", not "women are worse at X."). He also suggested that if the goal is for Google to become more inclusive toward women, that perhaps the roles should be adjusted to appeal more to women than to stick our heads in the sand and pretend the problem is Google's pat…

>("generally, women prefer not to do X", not "women are worse at X."). You're sneaking in your "prefer" with your "generally". Damore didn't speak just to preference, he also spoke to ability. >If you run a burger place and want more women to eat there, you start serving salads. That doesn't mean you're a sexist for thinking women can't eat burgers. Some do. But generally speaking, women eat salads at higher rates th…

> You're sneaking in your "prefer" with your "generally". Damore didn't speak just to preference, he also spoke to ability.

Ability follows as a result of preference. I am a terrible architect because I chose to become a software engineer. That does not mean that if I had chosen to become an architect, I would be terrible at it. If most of the people from my hometown made the same choice, then most of us would be less good at architecting due to that preference.

> So now let me ask you, do you think women prefer salads because of biology, or do you think that women prefer salads because of culture? You can say both but if so maybe you could say which one you think is the larger influence and by how much.

Personally I think it's almost entirely culture. I couldn't say how much is what, but it makes no difference. The point is that it undermines the incumbent narrative, which is that sexism and oppression are the only significant causes.

> Also, do you think that men are biologically better at eating burgers? Is this the reason they are more likely to order a burger?

No, but I do think if you're running a burger place and refuse to acknowledge the possibility that different groups of customers prefer different things, you're going to be out of business soon. Fortunately restaurant menu choices haven't been politically charged--yet.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#389

Post by vorotato »

oh_sigh wrote: post #384
vorotato wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes from a certain angle it's a PR win/win. However if he actually pursues a lawsuit with his money he's with near certainty going to be the loser.

I really doubt it is with his own money. Google pays pretty well, but he was only employed for a couple of years outside of school, so I doubt he has millions just sitting around. Almost certainly this case is taken on a contingency basis or they are using crowdsourced funds.

I suppose if it's crowd sourced he has no choice but to tilt at windmills.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#390

Post by throwaway233456 »

vorotato wrote: post #381
dmitrygr wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> however I'm sure they'd be able to show they hire plenty of republicans Discrimination is not just about hiring but also about workplace comfort. And let me tell you, being a non-democrat at google is NOT comfortable! VERY not comfortable!

IANAL, but as I understand it, it depends on what causes the discomfort. If your discomfort comes from the existence of other protected classes, like a baptist in a den of atheists then it's tough beans. If however you can evidence that they've created a hostile environment for you outside of your relation to other protected classes then yes that makes sense.

How about the CEO onstage saying "this company is no place for anyone who voted Trump" ?
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