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Apple shareholders push for study of phone addiction in children

bloomberg.com

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Re: Apple shareholders push for study of phone addiction in children

#91

Post by jeffdavis »

paulcole wrote: post #71
ModernMech wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen versions of several of these ruin people's lives very close to me. For example, I knew someone who played WOW to the detriment of his schooling, health, and social life. WOW is another product that is explicitly engineered to be addictive. The difference between then and now is cell phones and social media are consumed at a scale that affects almost everyone, to a degree that hasn't been seen before. It's w…

>I've seen versions of several of these ruin people's lives very close to me. Well your ones of anecdotes have sold me.

Anecdotes suggest the need for further study, which is exactly the topic: further study.

Re: Apple shareholders push for study of phone addiction in children

#92

Post by rock_hard »

krisives wrote: post #84
thisisit wrote: post #81

I sometimes wonder how much of this is actually on the parents as well? I see some of my co-workers handing phones with some games to distract their child. Previously we had smaller toys - plastic etc, now it seems phones are an easier go to medium.

15 years ago it was called "VCR parenting" now we call it "tablet parenting" - People live hard and complex lives, so I'm not going to make judgment on a single parent trying to provide for their kids being unable to be a full-time entertainer as well. The good news is technology and apps are making it easier for parents to be better with less effort (which may sound harsh but is how life gets better overall)

I agree that I rather hand my kids a tablet or smartphone then putting them in front of a TV or game console.

What I sometimes miss from the conversation is that there is a lot of good things one can do with such device...and yes, also some bad ones...just like with a scissors or a lighter.

It’s on parents to teach their kids how the world functions and how to integrate into it...always has, always will!

And the latest craze (is this case smartphones) is simply that...the latest thing a contemporary human has to learn how to use.

And our kids will have to teach their kids one day how to use (and moderate personal use of) whatever the latest craze they have then.

Re: Apple shareholders push for study of phone addiction in children

#93

Post by rock_hard »

krisives wrote: post #76

Full disclosure: I work for a company called DnsLearning (although we are rebranding to StudyCity) Our system is simple, you point your child's device at a DNS server then add various accounts to supported educational sites like Khan Academy, Duolingo, Prodigy Math, etc. Our server detects when your child earns points on these platforms and disables access to non-educational (junk) sites until they earn X points to u…

That is so cool! Love that idea...help parents to parent by teaching kids how to use things in moderation

Re: Apple shareholders push for study of phone addiction in children

#94

Post by jeffdavis »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #89
quickthrower2 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with doing all of these studies? Aren't you glad we know about the harmful effects of tobacco smoke, UV light, radiation, too much sugar etc.?

If using a computer is addictive, what is the response? I am concerned with any action that takes a child's privacy or liberty from them. I haven't heard a proposed solution that does neither, and most do both. Someone with the absolute best intentions it's likely to take seriously harmful actions when privacy and liberty are disrespected.

Are you worried about parents, or governments?

Re: Apple shareholders push for study of phone addiction in children

#95

Post by rock_hard »

tyingq wrote: post #31
kosmet wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because Apple is a hardware company and Google (read Android) is an advertising company. Stopping addiction is more harmful to Google than Apple. Hence it can improve their market share.

Makes sense. Apple wants you to buy the phone, that's enough. Google needs you to use the phone, the more the better.

Sorry. But no, just buying the phone is not enough for Apple!

If somebody would buy a iPhone and then rarely/never use it, then they would never or only in very long cycles buy a new iPhone...people also talk less about things they rarely use and it would therefore hurt brand awareness...and if you believe that Apples singular motivation to exist is to make more profit then that’s not a good thing!

Armchair commenters like to focus on how making profit is a company’s singular purpose and motivation...the bigger the company (Apple, Google, etc) the more kitties they are willing to poison to do so...but that’s absurd!

Making a lot of money is the ‘outcome’ of providing something people want...and the companies who do this successfully are simply the ones that focus on metrics that measure how much use users get out of their products...it’s that simple...and I would imagine that anyone who ever worked at a successful company would be able to attest that.

I have never ever in my career sat in a team meeting in a successful company where somebody suggested doing something because it would make us more money...that kind of thinking is shortsighted...I can see how it could work temporarily but it’s not a way to build a mission driven company like the ones at hand!

I am all for being critical...but we need to stop being cynical about everything...that doesn’t lead to any place worth going!

Try this: At first assume good intent and then think about why a company build their product the way they did...and then do the same but assume bad intent. Always almost will you notice that if the company was truly ill intended they would have driven it way farther.

Re: Apple shareholders push for study of phone addiction in children

#96

Post by mistercow »

musage wrote: post #51
mistercow wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The observation is that whenever kids fixate on some new activity, the previous generation will always become extremely suspicious that it's harmful. If this hasn't been borne out in the past, then we can't take those suspicions as much evidence that there's anything to worry about.

But we're soley not operating on "extreme suspicions because something is new" here. The letter does cite some studies, for starters. And you're mixing up "haven't always borne out exactly as predicted by the most worried people" and "have never borne out". There was a time when using x-ray machines in shoe shops seemed totally benign, like a fun, useful thing. Suspicions about that "new thing" as well as others were…

>The letter does cite some studies, for starters.

Sure, but surely these suspicions would exist anyway. The fact that we're probably thinking about this because of some bias is important to note, because that bias is likely to continue affecting people's thinking moving forward.

>And you're mixing up "haven't always borne out exactly as predicted by the most worried people" and "have never borne out".

I don't think I am. Any randomly selected hypothesis has some possibility of being true, especially one like "is harmful". The fact that some of them have been borne out doesn't necessarily mean that "new things kids like are especially likely to be bad" is a good heuristic.

It's not that it's impossible that "phone addiction" is hurting kids. It's that we've seen this pattern over and over, and when people's thinking is biased, they're likely to continue believing there's a problem long after the majority of evidence suggests that there isn't. Pointing that out to raise people's skepticism is productive.

Re: Apple shareholders push for study of phone addiction in children

#97

Post by b1daly »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #89
quickthrower2 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with doing all of these studies? Aren't you glad we know about the harmful effects of tobacco smoke, UV light, radiation, too much sugar etc.?

If using a computer is addictive, what is the response? I am concerned with any action that takes a child's privacy or liberty from them. I haven't heard a proposed solution that does neither, and most do both. Someone with the absolute best intentions it's likely to take seriously harmful actions when privacy and liberty are disrespected.

Huh, Children’s privacy and liberty are already extremely limited, by definition.

The phone addiction thing is severe for young people, and it’s not comparable to playing games on the computer back in the day.

My stepson responded to the suggestion of placing modest limits on his phone use with genuine anguish.

The problem is compounded by network effects, because vital social connections are now actively mediated through the phones.

Re: Apple shareholders push for study of phone addiction in children

#98

Post by mistercow »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #47
mistercow wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there are obvious concerns about the effects of spending too much time playing video games, it doesn't seem like people are focusing much on the possible psychological impact of the kind of surveillance that modern technology affords parents. Kids need some privacy to explore and express themselves, and I'm worried that as we try to let parents take their natural risk aversion to further and further extremes, w…

Limiting device usage electronically or physically is a far cry away from snooping on your kids’ browsing or messaging histories. As far as intrusions go, this is a level 0. As a kid, we were limited by technology, so no limits were needed (SMB just wasn’t that replayable, and the TI/99 was even worse). Perhaps the solution to creativity here is to simply give your kids older computers to play with.

I'm not really concerned about the time limit function. But the video also says that it gives you a "report" of how much time your kids are spending on each game, and I think that may go too far.

Keep in mind that this isn't just about how good parents can misuse technology in raising their kids. I think people tend to think of "parents" as a group as something different from the individual parents they've actually encountered. A lot of parents are actually pretty terrible, and when we talk about "giving parents tools" we need to keep in mind that we're also empowering those parents.

So while the tendency might be to imagine some wholesome mom who just wants to know her kid isn't playing Murder-Fuck 2018, we should also remember the homophobic dad worried about his son playing a My Little Pony game.

Re: Apple shareholders push for study of phone addiction in children

#99

Post by nawtacawp »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #86
ModernMech wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen versions of several of these ruin people's lives very close to me. For example, I knew someone who played WOW to the detriment of his schooling, health, and social life. WOW is another product that is explicitly engineered to be addictive. The difference between then and now is cell phones and social media are consumed at a scale that affects almost everyone, to a degree that hasn't been seen before. It's w…

I'm wary of the proposed solutions. I spent very significant time during my childhood using computers. At the time, I would have had scarcely anything to prove that time was in any way "useful". I would have been hard pressed to convince others that my behavior was not detrimental. Because I did spend so much time freely using computers, I learned how to use them. I learned about Linux, partitioning, bootloaders, pro…

I would imagine a lot of us here who grew up in 90s would have the same experience. However, I do not see the same parallel to using a mobile device dominated by facebook, Snapchat, emojis and games. There is nothing to tinker with. I also don’t believe that mobile device use bridges to computer use — which could possibly cause a child to show interest in ‘how are these apps made?’

Re: Apple shareholders push for study of phone addiction in children

#100

Post by xy55 »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #86
ModernMech wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen versions of several of these ruin people's lives very close to me. For example, I knew someone who played WOW to the detriment of his schooling, health, and social life. WOW is another product that is explicitly engineered to be addictive. The difference between then and now is cell phones and social media are consumed at a scale that affects almost everyone, to a degree that hasn't been seen before. It's w…

I'm wary of the proposed solutions. I spent very significant time during my childhood using computers. At the time, I would have had scarcely anything to prove that time was in any way "useful". I would have been hard pressed to convince others that my behavior was not detrimental. Because I did spend so much time freely using computers, I learned how to use them. I learned about Linux, partitioning, bootloaders, pro…

Do you believe that your experience is typical?
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