Calling for a new approach to depression • Hacker News Board

Re: Calling for a new approach to depression

#21

Post by drumhead » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 11:40 PM UTC

I'd like to think that medical professionals and academics in the mental health field have probably been thorough enough in their research to have looked at these finding over the years. I somehow doubt a person whose graduated in Social and Political Science and has no medical or scientific background might actually know what they're talking about in relation to this.

Interesting thing about the author. He was a rising journalistic star in the UK. He'd won awards was regularly on TV and radio, until it was discovered he had been plagiarising others for a lot of his articles. It was also found that he had been editing wikipedia articles to attack people who critisised him. An interestingly tragic character.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Hari

Re: Calling for a new approach to depression

#22

Post by nixpulvis » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 11:41 PM UTC

whichdan wrote: post #12

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There are people who have wonderful lives, fulfilling jobs, happy families, who are still depressed. If someone truly feels and believes they have a "wonderful" life, it would seem they are not suffering from crippling depression. Though what I think you're trying to say is there are people who are depressed even though they seem to have all of their basic human needs being met.

It's entirely possible for someone to suffer from depression despite knowing that they have a good life.

Sure they have a good life when they try to enumerate the qualities of a good life, what they forget is that some "needs" may be unknown to them, though if they listen the needs aren't usually very quite.

Re: Calling for a new approach to depression

#23

Post by wu-ikkyu » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 11:41 PM UTC

nixpulvis wrote: post #19

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #16

It still seems many people believe there is strong scientific evidence to the "chemical imbalance" theory as an independent cause of depression, which is a myth. It is a paradoxical issue though, because chemicals can indeed play a crucial role to overcoming depression.

What even is a chemical anyway... honestly people throw this word around in these kinds of contexts with all kinds of meanings.

Great question! Though it would seem we are delving into the realm of metaphysics, which is unfortunately taboo for modern psychiatry.

Re: Calling for a new approach to depression

#24

Post by blhack » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 11:41 PM UTC

There are two things that both get called "depression". Like so many other confusing things, this all is the result of fuzzy language.

There is depression: the feeling of being sad. This can be triggered by all sorts of environmental factors, and is ultimately a psychological disorder that can be solved by changing environment variables.

There is also depression: the neurochemcial/neurophysiological disorder that has depression (sadness) as one of its symptoms.

It can be treated with various (miracle) drugs.

--

People who want to fight against the idea that these modern miracles (drugs that treat depression) are effective treatments for this debilitating, but curable disease, belong in the same category as flat earth era, anti-vaxxers and now, apparently, "raw water" fans/advocates.

Required viewing: a lecture on this topic by somebody who knows more about it that anybody else who is currently alive: https://youtu.be/NOAgplgTxfc

Re: Calling for a new approach to depression

#25

Post by jamesrom » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 11:41 PM UTC

foobarbecue wrote: post #6

Why did my comment get flagged? I assume this was a mistake, so reposting: tl;dr: Many people diagnosed with depression are actually just sad because modern society is kinda lame. (The article argues this point cogently, and I agree with it.) [I slightly edited this because I think people thought I was saying that I think all depressed people are faking or something]

I think "modern society" is a scapegoat here.

You aren't yearning for a more antique society. You are romanticising the past.

The part you are looking for is being connected to a community, and there's many more ways to do that today than ever before.

Re: Calling for a new approach to depression

#26

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 11:41 PM UTC

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #16

It still seems many people believe there is strong scientific evidence to the "chemical imbalance" theory as an independent cause of depression, which is a myth. It is a paradoxical issue though, because chemicals can indeed play a crucial role to overcoming depression.

[deleted]

Re: Calling for a new approach to depression

#27

Post by TheSpiceIsLife » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 11:41 PM UTC

nixpulvis wrote: post #17

I've been depressed, and I'll tell you this straight up. If a doctor gave me a cow instead of the pills, I would have been way better off... ignoring all the actual problems the cow solved for the rice farmer in the article, just the honesty of the doctors recognizing the real issue in the right spirit would have made me laugh, and prolly "cure" me, at least for a little while.

Getting two (sibling, Border Collie x Foxhound) puppies, and taking a boatload of magnesium and Vitamin D, a fair bit of rock climbing, skiing, jogging, and weight training, seems to have alleviated me of all my anxiety and depression.

I obtained a prescription for an SSRI from a doctor, sat in the car outside the pharmacy for an hour staring at the prescription, then drove home. No way, fuck that those drugs. I've already wasted the better part of 10 years of my life to meth-amphetamine. I'm gonna work this out without drugs.

Re: Calling for a new approach to depression

#28

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 11:43 PM UTC

blhack wrote: post #24

There are two things that both get called "depression". Like so many other confusing things, this all is the result of fuzzy language. There is depression: the feeling of being sad. This can be triggered by all sorts of environmental factors, and is ultimately a psychological disorder that can be solved by changing environment variables. There is also depression: the neurochemcial/neurophysiological disorder that has…

[deleted]

Re: Calling for a new approach to depression

#29

Post by greenyoda » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 11:45 PM UTC

EGreg wrote: post #9

foobarbecue wrote: post #6

Why did my comment get flagged? I assume this was a mistake, so reposting: tl;dr: Many people diagnosed with depression are actually just sad because modern society is kinda lame. (The article argues this point cogently, and I agree with it.) [I slightly edited this because I think people thought I was saying that I think all depressed people are faking or something]

I found, over the years of being on HN, that there's a sort of forceful response that always comes to these types of comments about depression, along with downvoting. The responses say basically, "Don't talk about what you don't know. Many people have real, chemical depression, and your comment that it's a product of life circumstances is not helpful ". I was always a but puzzled about the regularity with which that…

A couple more points regarding "Don't talk about what you don't know":

1. How would we even know whether the person who posted the comment has no personal experience with depression? They may be agreeing with the author of the article because they've both had long experience with depression, and have both become skeptical about the mainstream views of it.

2. Just because someone has had personal experience with depression does not necessarily make them an authority on that topic.

Lots of people on HN express strong opinions about things that they're not personally experienced with: poverty, sexual harassment, etc. (not to mention tons of technical topics). If we stopped talking about everything we have no personal experience with, discussion on HN would dry up pretty quickly.

Re: Calling for a new approach to depression

#30

Post by nixpulvis » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 11:47 PM UTC

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #23

nixpulvis wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What even is a chemical anyway... honestly people throw this word around in these kinds of contexts with all kinds of meanings.

Great question! Though it would seem we are delving into the realm of metaphysics, which is unfortunately taboo for modern psychiatry.

I mean, are the electronic signals that constitute my nervous system a "chemical balance" (I could make that argument), well then SURE all depression is completely 100% chemical...

But I digress.