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Regarding the Em Dash

themillions.com

181–190 of 219 posts

Re: Regarding the Em Dash

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I land on the side favoring a space on each side of the dash. Horrible; if you are going to set a dash open and use it for the purpose of an em-dash, use an en-dash. Setting an em-dash open is ugly as hell. > I prefer to ASCII-encode my em dashes with three hyphens. Two-hyphens is conventional for an en-dash. Since a set-open en-dash serves the same purposes as an em-dash, a lot of people just use that instead of t…

>> I land on the side favoring a space on each side of the dash. > Horrible; I strongly disagree. A closed em-dash—like this—looks jarringly like the words either side of it are closely related, as if by an extra-long hyphen. For example, in t previous sentence, “this—looks” visually appears to me to be a single compound entity, which is ironic considering that the intention was to make them appear especially separat…

AFAIK closed em-dashes are the more widespreadly used version, and the fact that they are em-dashes gives away that they indicate no relations among the words they separate. Though this is kind of a bikeshedding problem where people don't differentiate between a hyphen and anything else, and sentences result incomprehensible, or they trip you and you have to read and re-read them. Even many publishers just don't care. I'm actually content when people are kind enough to use something that's not a hyphen for indicating what em-dash does. IDK whan en-dash is really used for, but apart from word pairs (like in love--hate) I'd rather not see them. My conception of dashes for daily use: hyphen for compound words or minus sign (too much trouble to distinguish), en-dash for word pairs, em-dash for marking asides in sentences (where they denote kind-of a different tone from paranthesised passages).

Re: Regarding the Em Dash

#182

Maybe I'm weirdly old fashioned, but I try to stick to ascii whenever possible - which means whatever character is stuck in the middle of this sentence. Ditto for the ellipsis, since it's not like three trailing periods at the end of a sentence can be mistaken for anything else...

I think that makes you decidedly new-fashioned. Typesetting has been done much longer than ASCII has existed after all.

Re: Regarding the Em Dash

#183

Tip: On a Mac, you can type an em-dash with shift-option-hyphen. (An en-dash is just option-hyphen.)

on this Mac i can only get the same double-length hyphen from either shift-option-hyphen or option-hyphen - hyphen — — — – – – both other options

Re: Regarding the Em Dash

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On Linux, you don't. > setxkbmap -option compose:menu For example. There will be a dialog somewhere too.

> There will be a dialog somewhere too. In Ubuntu Unity and — I think — Gnome Shell: Keyboard settings » Shortcuts » Typing » Compose key

And KDE, IIRC: system settings, input settings, keyboard, advanced, compose key.

Re: Regarding the Em Dash

#185
post #175

I learned old-school printing in high school. We had a press with a flatbed and screw. More to the point, we had lower and upper cases filled with steel type, including lots of different dashes and spaces. Our teacher was a traditionalist. He taught us such things as how to justify a line of type. Narrowing a line involved switching "thicks" (nominal space slugs) for "middles" in an artful way. Widening it involved s…

Unicode (and so HTML) also has U+2008 ‐ HYPHEN U+2212 − MINUS SIGN HYPHEN is not much used since in most fonts it's identical to ASCII ‘-’. MINUS SIGN is meant to be visually congruent with +×÷=, etc (same stroke width and appropriate alignment). Personally I have - – — ‐ ‑ − on my usual keyboard layout.

Correction: hyphen is U+2010, not U+2008 (which is punctuation space).

Re: Regarding the Em Dash

#186
post #185
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unicode (and so HTML) also has U+2008 ‐ HYPHEN U+2212 − MINUS SIGN HYPHEN is not much used since in most fonts it's identical to ASCII ‘-’. MINUS SIGN is meant to be visually congruent with +×÷=, etc (same stroke width and appropriate alignment). Personally I have - – — ‐ ‑ − on my usual keyboard layout.

Correction: hyphen is U+2010, not U+2008 (which is punctuation space).

Thanks. Too late for me to edit.

Re: Regarding the Em Dash

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would help if you didn't have to install special software to get a compose key.

On Linux, you don't. > setxkbmap -option compose:menu For example. There will be a dialog somewhere too.

For an average computer, you're neglecting the step where you install Linux.

Even specially enabling it is a real barrier in many ways.

Re: Regarding the Em Dash

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah? So? First, it does not say that one must not use spaces around em dashes. Second, so what if it did? This is English we're talking about. The main rule of English is that there are no rules. If you want a rule for English: it's to speak and write in such a way as to be understood -- who would fail to understand the whitespace around an em dash?! Not I. But missing whitespace around an em dash can be confusing -…

You can do it. Unless you have an editor, nobody is going to stop you. It just looks awkward and pretentious to anyone with knowledge of typographic conventions (as in pretending hard to be fancy while revealing your ignorance of standard practice.) It’s like using obscure words in an ungrammatical or unidiomatic way; again nobody but your editor is going to stop you, but anyone who knows the way those words are typi…

No editor is going to tell you not to do something that lots of people do. As the other reply says, you're being a tad pretentious over nothing much. Chill.

Re: Regarding the Em Dash

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There may not be rules but there are conventions. These conventions are rarely very strict but they do help communicate your ideas. Understanding them and understanding the impact of not using them is an important set of knowledge if you want to be clear and well understood in your writing. It is similar to good typography in that it isn't required but that it will often make the reader enjoy or understand the work m…

You're saying only the qualified are allowed to break conventions you were taught. You are free to follow that; I am free to not.

The downvotes show the grammar nazis abound. I'm with Churchill, who famously said of not ending sentences with prepositions that "that is the sort of thing up with which I shall not put!".

Re: Regarding the Em Dash

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two hyphens is plenty. Three is calling attention to it. One is pitiful. While we're on this subject, wide spacing between sentence-ending periods and the next sentence is the Right Way (tm). In ASCII that's two spaces. We're not animals. Let's behave accordingly.

When the web was invented, we came to consensus there should be a single space after periods that close sentences in rendered HTML documents. You can see the original discussion, on the www-talk mailing list in July 1993 [1]. In the thread "Space after Periods," Terry Allen (an editor at O'Reilly) advocated for rendering more space after a period that closes a sentence than after a period that marks an abbreviation (…

I've seen and participated in many such discussions. Reasonable people disagree: http://apvschicago.com/2011/05/em-dashes-and-ellipses-closed... Unreasonable people downvote.
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