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The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

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Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#181
post #8

This article is going to rub lots of people the wrong way, I suspect, but it's level headed, well reasoned and well written. Although I ultimately disagree with some of the conclusions drawn at the end, (particularly: > Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class.…

The New York times had an interesting take on this in [1]. It argues that what we are seeing now is a resurgence of a victorian view of women as fragile beings that need to be sheltered from any possible harmful situation. This is bullshit; women are as capable as a man of saying no and tactfully pointing out when something emotionally difficult is happening. I think the problem is that we have gone from rightly taki…

Two things to note:

Saying that this is from the nyt is misleading. It's an option piece and I doubt it's endorsed.

Second, that article appears to be attacking a strawman. Few, if any, if the feminists I communicate with believe that "believe all women" is an absolute insofar as there should be no further investigation.

It came about because historically, society didn't trust but verify, it ignored and threw under the rug. Believe women was a reaction to "but are you sure you weren't asking for it" and "but you don't remember, so how do you know you didn't consent". It was a call to trust but verify. People who say otherwise are either missing important context, or are pushing a false narrative.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a useful term because it bakes a ton of political ideas into a concept everyone is expected to accept. Mainly that our society is somehow intelligently designed to put men in charge and that it’s not a mix of biology and random happenstance that got us where we are today. It also implies that men actually are in charge. Some men may be but the vast majority are not. If incarceration and university enrollment…

"Mainly that our society is somehow intelligently designed to put men in charge and that it’s not a mix of biology and random happenstance that got us where we are today." i don't believe anyone thinks this a or that anyone cares if we're here by accident of history or by intention. "It also implies that men actually are in charge. Some men may be but the vast majority are not." of course, and the vast majority of wo…

> claim that patriarchy is a misnomer because it's bad for men too.

Nope. What I wrote that it is perpetuated/enforced by both men and women (arguably by women more than men) and has both negative and positive effects for both men and women.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The New York times had an interesting take on this in [1]. It argues that what we are seeing now is a resurgence of a victorian view of women as fragile beings that need to be sheltered from any possible harmful situation. This is bullshit; women are as capable as a man of saying no and tactfully pointing out when something emotionally difficult is happening. I think the problem is that we have gone from rightly taki…

Two things to note: Saying that this is from the nyt is misleading. It's an option piece and I doubt it's endorsed. Second, that article appears to be attacking a strawman. Few, if any, if the feminists I communicate with believe that "believe all women" is an absolute insofar as there should be no further investigation. It came about because historically, society didn't trust but verify, it ignored and threw under t…

I agree with you that attributing this view to a whole group is likely to be neither accurate nor particularly interesting. Plenty of feminists and others seem to be waking up to the conclusions made by this piece.

As much as I believe you that most people furthering this view had the best intentions, that does not stop us from critically inspecting if this idea is a good one when applied in real life. In practice this has turned into what the article describe, and I believe any claim to the otherwise is at this point only of rhetorical interest. Are you claiming otherwise, and if so how do you explain the mob-like behavior with no due process?

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why affirmative action? Because if one person takes everything from another person, is it fair to say "you know, that was bad, and it shouldn't have happened, but since that's in the past we should just make sure that we treat both of them the same now"? (I will also note that all the work I see being done to end 'regular' discrimination, a.k.a get to the state where we do see people as individuals and don't act base…

Don't you think its a bit odd to try to compensate for implicit bias with explicit bias? To me it seems unlikely that bigotry, sexism and racism will be fixed by more of the same.

Not particularly. We do it all the time when the free market misses some context. I see no major difference between a carbon tax and an affirmative action policy.

In both cases, the naively optimal action misses some important context, so the system is then tweaked to modify the outcome to take the external factors into account.

Do you have any alternative that isn't isomorphic to affirmative action?

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#185
post #8

This article is going to rub lots of people the wrong way, I suspect, but it's level headed, well reasoned and well written. Although I ultimately disagree with some of the conclusions drawn at the end, (particularly: > Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class.…

> Acknowledging that women are 'vulnerable or marginalised' shouldn't remove their individuality, you can easily have both, but that's beside my point here) I don't think you can easily have both, and this problem underlies much contemporary political conflict. At its core is a pervasive hypocrisy: people readily engage in broad, often negative, stereotyping about groups they oppose, or are not a member of, while agg…

It would be nice if people agreed on the correctness of said statistics, the interpretation of it and which statistics to talk about in the first place. One in four get sexually assaulted, the pay gap, opinion of Muslims about sharia low, they are all statistics but people don't even agree whether they are correct or not.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#186
post #8

This article is going to rub lots of people the wrong way, I suspect, but it's level headed, well reasoned and well written. Although I ultimately disagree with some of the conclusions drawn at the end, (particularly: > Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class.…

> I think labeling or delineating women as 'vulnerable or marginalised' and ignoring their unique qualities and idiosyncrasies is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Acknowledging that women are 'vulnerable or marginalised' shouldn't remove their individuality, you can easily have both

I'm not at all sure about the "easily" part there. Humans cognition seems to be very prone to substituting stereotypes in place of individuals with unique attributes.

While I personally agree with your point, the popular media seems to be incapable of making arguments that require holding two separate opposing concepts in tension with each other. The mainstream media monologues on these issues are usually simplified to a childish level.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two things to note: Saying that this is from the nyt is misleading. It's an option piece and I doubt it's endorsed. Second, that article appears to be attacking a strawman. Few, if any, if the feminists I communicate with believe that "believe all women" is an absolute insofar as there should be no further investigation. It came about because historically, society didn't trust but verify, it ignored and threw under t…

I agree with you that attributing this view to a whole group is likely to be neither accurate nor particularly interesting. Plenty of feminists and others seem to be waking up to the conclusions made by this piece. As much as I believe you that most people furthering this view had the best intentions, that does not stop us from critically inspecting if this idea is a good one when applied in real life. In practice th…

I reject the claim that "believe women" has turned into what the article describes, except in alarmist circles. The reactions to different accusers I think sides with me on that. Consider Weinstein vs. Franken. Reactions we're very different, in part due to the political nature, but also because the Franken accusations are less extensive than the Weinstein ones. Alarmism like that article misses the context that Franken chose to step down, prematurely in the eyes of many, whereas Weinstein has denied and fought this. Had Franken reacted like Weinstein, he'd still be in the senate and likely free of any major repercussions.

What mob like behavior and what lack of due process? Do you mean that people are seeing legal repercussions without due process? Or that private entities are choosing to disassociate from people without due process? In the second case, what standard of due process is necessary?

Are you suggesting it is morally wrong for me to disassociate from someone if I witness them committing a heinous act, because due process has not completed? If not, at what level of certainty is it morally acceptable for me to disassociate from them?

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Mainly that our society is somehow intelligently designed to put men in charge and that it’s not a mix of biology and random happenstance that got us where we are today." i don't believe anyone thinks this a or that anyone cares if we're here by accident of history or by intention. "It also implies that men actually are in charge. Some men may be but the vast majority are not." of course, and the vast majority of wo…

> claim that patriarchy is a misnomer because it's bad for men too. Nope. What I wrote that it is perpetuated/enforced by both men and women (arguably by women more than men) and has both negative and positive effects for both men and women.

yeah, that's the one. thanks for clearing up any confusion that i might have caused by not reproducing your post verbatim.

anyway, gender roles and gender expectations.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The New York times had an interesting take on this in [1]. It argues that what we are seeing now is a resurgence of a victorian view of women as fragile beings that need to be sheltered from any possible harmful situation. This is bullshit; women are as capable as a man of saying no and tactfully pointing out when something emotionally difficult is happening. I think the problem is that we have gone from rightly taki…

Meaning that #meetoo has become yet another arrow in the SJW quiver...

Would you please not post ideological flamebait?

If you have a substantive point to make, make it thoughtfully; if you don't, please don't comment until you do.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16092277 is fine, this is not.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you think its a bit odd to try to compensate for implicit bias with explicit bias? To me it seems unlikely that bigotry, sexism and racism will be fixed by more of the same.

Not particularly. We do it all the time when the free market misses some context. I see no major difference between a carbon tax and an affirmative action policy. In both cases, the naively optimal action misses some important context, so the system is then tweaked to modify the outcome to take the external factors into account. Do you have any alternative that isn't isomorphic to affirmative action?

> Do you have any alternative that isn't isomorphic to affirmative action?

Possible alternative:

We need to embrace that all decisions we make are emotional, even the rational ones [1], and create a process that facilitates the desired change. I believe this can be done by hiring competent minorities into teams [2], where although they are a minority in general they will not be on their team. These teams should not only be that minority as you in a truly inclusive system can't define people by a trait.

Since its a minority you probably have to do some extra legway in facilitating matching these teams well to problems the the team members find interesting and that there are growth opportunities. However, that is an ongoing conversation you should be having at any rate.

By these teams being competent they will through normal work-conversations and collaborations open minds on how successful people look like. Very suddenly it will be clear that both nerdy and pretty girls as well as anyone in between can code well, and that people that talk and walk in ways that make you uncomfortable might actually be competent and give you a unique perspective if you truly include them in your conversation.

Yes, it is not flashy and won't make great campaign posters. However, it empowers individuals while helping those individuals deal with being a minority without it being a zero sum game. And then we can watch history unfold, like how asians went from being railroad grunt work to model immigrants.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Behave-Biology-Humans-Best-Worst-eboo... [2] suggested action by feminists and researchers like Francis Frei, although I am not sure they support this full proposal

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