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Ask HN: Delay buying new devices due to Meltdown/Spectre CPU bug?

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Re: Ask HN: Delay buying new devices due to Meltdown/Spectre CPU bug?

#51

Post by stevefan1999 »

quantummkv wrote: post #30
javitury wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unless you are building a server, it does not matter The average HN user is not the typical desktop/laptop user. I bet we use virtual machines, compilers, technologies like nvme, databases (postgres/mysql)... more often than the typical desktop/laptop user.

Yes, we do. But I doubt anyone is using them for production workloads. Development workloads don't continuously push cpu to 100% or even 70% for large periods of time. Development workloads don't make 1000 req/sec on postgres. No one has 10 vm's running at a time on a desktop. These perf issues will only affect the server and cloud providers or some edge cases on the desktop. Everyone else can just apply the patches…

I think parallel compilation is going to be hit the most. On my VS2017 with the latest MSVC and C++17, and a moderate C++ project (very few units, only about 100 files and so many constexpr and TMP) with multi core compilation enabled, plus a E5-2660, I have a record of 10% penalty(originally a minute) in build time after clean-and-rebuild. Haven’t tested with IncrediBuild tho, but my paralleled webpack production build seems to offer the same outcome. 30 secs to 36 secs. Both of which is not that really mattered I’d say. I’m using Windows 10 with KB4056892.

Re: Ask HN: Delay buying new devices due to Meltdown/Spectre CPU bug?

#52

Post by anarazel »

microtonal wrote: post #17
chrisper wrote: post #14

I just got an 8700k last week. I was thinking about returning it and go with Amd instead. The truth is, I do not do many tasks on my home computer where the CPU is going to be at >50% at all times. The other truth is, that Intel CPUs are just faster than Amd Cpus (now with a few exceptions, but for general use that still applies). I'd say if you are talking about a large quantity purchase, you should maybe wait or lo…

The cynic in me is amazed how people complain about a loss of 0-30% in performance on the desktop (depending on the workload), but are completely happy to replace native applications by Electron applications and/or web applications. Of course, these may be disjoint sets of people. I think when it comes to most desktop workloads, the security issues are far more interesting and serious. And while Meltdown only affects…

> The cynic in me is amazed how people complain about a loss of 0-30% in performance on the desktop (depending on the workload), but are completely happy to replace native applications by Electron applications and/or web applications. Of course, these may be disjoint sets of people

I think this largely due to faulty bottleneck analysis. I'm not hugely slowed down overall if the switch to a chat application is 50ms slower, even if I may notice it. If the tests I need to run at various stages of the development process are slowed down by 30% however, that might actually be noticeable for development pace. More likely to context switch to something else / get out of flow.

Re: Ask HN: Delay buying new devices due to Meltdown/Spectre CPU bug?

#53

Post by teej »

foxhop wrote: post #47

Delay or upgrade by purchasing used hardware. I often buy my gear 3-4 years old from Ebay, it lets me upgrade without the sticker shock. This assumes you don't need the latest and greatest. I do this with laptops and server gear. This is similar to purchasing used cars, you can steadily upgrade with much less capital and therefore each purchase holds much less risk. Also it's much better for the environment.

Buying old or used hardware from 3-4 years ago does not protect you from Spectre/Meltdown.

Re: Ask HN: Delay buying new devices due to Meltdown/Spectre CPU bug?

#54

Post by microtonal »

anarazel wrote: post #52
microtonal wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cynic in me is amazed how people complain about a loss of 0-30% in performance on the desktop (depending on the workload), but are completely happy to replace native applications by Electron applications and/or web applications. Of course, these may be disjoint sets of people. I think when it comes to most desktop workloads, the security issues are far more interesting and serious. And while Meltdown only affects…

> The cynic in me is amazed how people complain about a loss of 0-30% in performance on the desktop (depending on the workload), but are completely happy to replace native applications by Electron applications and/or web applications. Of course, these may be disjoint sets of people I think this largely due to faulty bottleneck analysis. I'm not hugely slowed down overall if the switch to a chat application is 50ms sl…

Thank you for this comment, it is very insightful.

It's also interesting how perception of these bottlenecks differs. I wouldn't care much if tests are running 30% slower, I run them in the background from my editor anyway. I usually tidy up stuff in the meanwhile or git stage some lines (which needs to be done anyway). However, if an editor has a higher latency than I am used to, it drives me crazy.

Re: Ask HN: Delay buying new devices due to Meltdown/Spectre CPU bug?

#55

Post by anarazel »

microtonal wrote: post #54
anarazel wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The cynic in me is amazed how people complain about a loss of 0-30% in performance on the desktop (depending on the workload), but are completely happy to replace native applications by Electron applications and/or web applications. Of course, these may be disjoint sets of people I think this largely due to faulty bottleneck analysis. I'm not hugely slowed down overall if the switch to a chat application is 50ms sl…

Thank you for this comment, it is very insightful. It's also interesting how perception of these bottlenecks differs. I wouldn't care much if tests are running 30% slower, I run them in the background from my editor anyway. I usually tidy up stuff in the meanwhile or git stage some lines (which needs to be done anyway). However, if an editor has a higher latency than I am used to, it drives me crazy.

> It's also interesting how perception of these bottlenecks differs. I wouldn't care much if tests are running 30% slower, I run them in the background from my editor anyway. I usually tidy up stuff in the meanwhile or git stage some lines (which needs to be done anyway).

Heh. I do that too, but I'm anxious enough that I rerun tests after finalizing the commit. I'll still use the time for the tests to finish to do another read through the commit, but especially when pushing to many supported branches at the same time, tests still take longer (work on a pg, which has 5 years of supported back branches...).

> However, if an editor has a higher latency than I am used to, it drives me crazy.

Oh yea, but I wouldn't use a web based editor, ever ;). The point I was trying to make was less about something as central as an editor - where I spent a lot of my time, fighting for first place besides terminals - but more around secondary non-critical path stuff like IM.

Re: Ask HN: Delay buying new devices due to Meltdown/Spectre CPU bug?

#56

Post by jsmith99 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #28
quantummkv wrote: post #7

Unless you are building a server, it does not matter. Your GPU handles a lot of desktop heavy workloads such as gaming. If you are building servers or a machine for CPU intensive tasks such as compiling chromium every hour, then you might want to look at AMD. The major performance hits are caused by meltdown patches that do not affect AMD. And the amount of cores they give certainly help in these workloads. Fixing th…

> Your GPU handles a lot of desktop heavy workloads such as gaming. Depends on a game, though. While true in most cases, one of my favourites - Kerbal Space Program - is heavily CPU-bound due to being mostly a real-time physics simulation.

There are certainly exceptions. But most games aren't like Dwarf Fortress.

Re: Ask HN: Delay buying new devices due to Meltdown/Spectre CPU bug?

#57

Post by dvlsg »

jsmith99 wrote: post #56
TeMPOraL wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your GPU handles a lot of desktop heavy workloads such as gaming. Depends on a game, though. While true in most cases, one of my favourites - Kerbal Space Program - is heavily CPU-bound due to being mostly a real-time physics simulation.

There are certainly exceptions. But most games aren't like Dwarf Fortress.

Even some games you might not expect could be in there. Guild Wars 2, for example, consistently uses the vast majority of my cpu.

Re: Ask HN: Delay buying new devices due to Meltdown/Spectre CPU bug?

#58

Post by foxhop »

teej wrote: post #53
foxhop wrote: post #47

Delay or upgrade by purchasing used hardware. I often buy my gear 3-4 years old from Ebay, it lets me upgrade without the sticker shock. This assumes you don't need the latest and greatest. I do this with laptops and server gear. This is similar to purchasing used cars, you can steadily upgrade with much less capital and therefore each purchase holds much less risk. Also it's much better for the environment.

Buying old or used hardware from 3-4 years ago does not protect you from Spectre/Meltdown.

I never said it does. Buying new hardware today does not protect you from Spectre/Meltdown either, the new hardware shipping for the next year at least (and the stuff currently on the shelf) does not protect you.

I suggested delaying a new purchase until the CPUs are fixed (who knows how long that will take) or upgrade by purchasing used to get a bump in performance regardless of the hardware flaw (which will still require software mitigation and thus have performance degradation).

Most hardware worth using right now has the hardware flaw so you might as well upgrade (for performance) by purchasing used.

Re: Ask HN: Delay buying new devices due to Meltdown/Spectre CPU bug?

#59

Post by VoodooJuJu »

I would put off hardware purchases, but for a different reason - crypto miners. As I was researching parts to buy for a new rig, I realized that just a few weeks ago, some GPU models were about half the price they currently are. Apparently, something recently happened with Bitcoin and/or other cryptocurrencies that caused a spike in mining interest.

Re: Ask HN: Delay buying new devices due to Meltdown/Spectre CPU bug?

#60

Post by cmh1729 »

dvlsg wrote: post #57
jsmith99 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are certainly exceptions. But most games aren't like Dwarf Fortress.

Even some games you might not expect could be in there. Guild Wars 2, for example, consistently uses the vast majority of my cpu.

Also, Valve's source engine is known for being relatively cpu-bound (compared to other engines).
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