The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer • Hacker News Board

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#131

Post by hinkley » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 6:26 PM UTC

Madmallard wrote: post #77

fouc wrote: post #37

Does anyone feel anti-social after a full day of programming? I always suspected that programming can temporarily reduce empathy at the end of the day. I don't have asperger's but I often feel a lot closer to that after a really intense day of speaking a machine's language.

Autism spectrum anomalies linked with cognitive metabolic abnormalities -> use a lot of cognitive energy all day -> regress while brain recovers

Jung and some modern psychologists believe that hypersensitivity is its own thing independent from autism. Indeed they assign this trait to some highly intuitive and empathetic people because they pick up on cues that nobody else notices. The label is HSP or High Sensitivity. But having your senses cranked to eleven all the time, we aren’t equipped for that and if you don’t have elaborate coping mechanisms you will put yourself in many awkward situations. A lot of introverts are HSP.

A significant fraction of everyone acts thoughtlessly when they are exhausted or overwhelmed. I would encourage people, before self diagnosing [edit: or believing a clinical diagnosis - this field is more art than science] as Spectrum, to do a little more research and think about whether you believe you have the symptoms all the time or only when you’re overstimulated, and how bad you feel about your behavior afterward, when you have more clarity.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#132

Post by vkou » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 6:29 PM UTC

spodek wrote: post #65

> the third factor, Gideon said, was the empathy gap, where we tend to be more receptive to women’s pain than men’s. When women talk about being made to feel uncomfortable at work, or being sexually harassed, we feel empathy and want to punish the wrong-doers. But we don’t have the same reaction for “geeks,” or “techbros”. Because our understanding of neurodiversity is painfully lacking, our culture tends to view men…

This is one very obvious critique of the patriarchy, that is also advanced by feminism. Traditional, toxic masculinity does not recognize 'non-manly' roles for men, their emotional and intellectual needs, etc.

It does not, however, follow, that it does not repress women. "But not all mens!" is true, but is also a bit of a red herring. Most members of both genders suffer it to their detriment.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#133

Post by malvosenior » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 6:34 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #132

spodek wrote: post #65

> the third factor, Gideon said, was the empathy gap, where we tend to be more receptive to women’s pain than men’s. When women talk about being made to feel uncomfortable at work, or being sexually harassed, we feel empathy and want to punish the wrong-doers. But we don’t have the same reaction for “geeks,” or “techbros”. Because our understanding of neurodiversity is painfully lacking, our culture tends to view men…

This is one very obvious critique of the patriarchy, that is also advanced by feminism. Traditional, toxic masculinity does not recognize 'non-manly' roles for men, their emotional and intellectual needs, etc. It does not, however, follow, that it does not repress women. "But not all mens!" is true, but is also a bit of a red herring. Most members of both genders suffer it to their detriment.

“Non-manly” men suffer just as much, if not more at the hands of women. “Toxic masculinity” is the red herring here.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#134

Post by mpweiher » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 6:36 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #132

spodek wrote: post #65

> the third factor, Gideon said, was the empathy gap, where we tend to be more receptive to women’s pain than men’s. When women talk about being made to feel uncomfortable at work, or being sexually harassed, we feel empathy and want to punish the wrong-doers. But we don’t have the same reaction for “geeks,” or “techbros”. Because our understanding of neurodiversity is painfully lacking, our culture tends to view men…

This is one very obvious critique of the patriarchy, that is also advanced by feminism. Traditional, toxic masculinity does not recognize 'non-manly' roles for men, their emotional and intellectual needs, etc. It does not, however, follow, that it does not repress women. "But not all mens!" is true, but is also a bit of a red herring. Most members of both genders suffer it to their detriment.

If the "patriarchy" is perpetrated by both men and women and negatively affects both men and women, maybe "patriarchy" is a bit of a misnomer?

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#135

Post by dcow » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 6:50 PM UTC

noobermin wrote: post #99

superflyguy wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wrote: -- Although I ultimately disagree with some of the conclusions drawn at the end, (particularly: "Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class." Acknowledging that women are 'vulnerable or marginalised' shouldn't remove their individuality, you can easily…

What evidence do we have that such a perspective is removing their individuality? The argument those of us on the left make is that people's individuality, their talent etc are disregarded because of their class/attributes etc., and society as it is set-up punishes some classes while rewarding others, rather than rewarding individuals as individuals.

Plenty of level-headed people on the right see things exactly that way too.

What kills us, or at least me (I'll identify for the purpose of this argument), is trying to figure out why people "on the left" are so focused on fixing the symptoms by way of "reverse discrimination" (i.e. affirmative action) instead of focusing on ensuring that we continue to see people as unique individuals instead of–what we feel is the socially destructive and in fact anti-diverse approach of–reducing people to their least common denominator group membership and treating them accordingly (identity politics).

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#136

Post by dominotw » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 6:51 PM UTC

yorwba wrote: post #128

dominotw wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it 'beside the point', I was specifically adressing the comment in GP > delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised If we don't do that then wouldn't the obvious question be "why have women accomplished so little compared to men?". You comment perfectly illustrates that point > the point here is a pretty specific type of treatment by men toward women that is unarguably bad behavior. You are saying "women as…

> "why have women accomplished so little compared to men?" You seem to assume that is the case, but maybe the answer is that you do not value or notice the accomplishments of women? The Nobel prizes honor one very specific kind of achievement, one that many (not all) women do not particularly strive for. You don't tend to get a Nobel as a pediatrician, but society needs pediatricians anyway. The gender wage gap is mo…

> The Nobel prizes honor one very specific kind of achievement, one that many (not all) women do not particularly strive for.

This is gender essentialism, to be believe that women have some specific type of preferences that men don't. This particular pernicious form of misogyny much much more harmful than overt sexism.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#137

Post by WalterSear » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 6:52 PM UTC

mpweiher wrote: post #134

vkou wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one very obvious critique of the patriarchy, that is also advanced by feminism. Traditional, toxic masculinity does not recognize 'non-manly' roles for men, their emotional and intellectual needs, etc. It does not, however, follow, that it does not repress women. "But not all mens!" is true, but is also a bit of a red herring. Most members of both genders suffer it to their detriment.

If the "patriarchy" is perpetrated by both men and women and negatively affects both men and women, maybe "patriarchy" is a bit of a misnomer?

Not if you are attempting to co-opt the situation.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#138

Post by pasquinelli » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 6:56 PM UTC

mpweiher wrote: post #134

vkou wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one very obvious critique of the patriarchy, that is also advanced by feminism. Traditional, toxic masculinity does not recognize 'non-manly' roles for men, their emotional and intellectual needs, etc. It does not, however, follow, that it does not repress women. "But not all mens!" is true, but is also a bit of a red herring. Most members of both genders suffer it to their detriment.

If the "patriarchy" is perpetrated by both men and women and negatively affects both men and women, maybe "patriarchy" is a bit of a misnomer?

why quibble over the word? you're talking about gender roles, men are supposed to be big and tough and take charge, and womem are supposed to be nurturing and demure and receptive to being taken charge of. it's a model with men in control, patriarchy is a fine word for that. of course if you can't hack your assigned gender role you'll catch shit from those that can. those that can hack their gender role may be men or women; those that can't may be men or women-- this is your observation. but how do you go from that to patriarchy is a misnomer?

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#139

Post by dcow » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 7:01 PM UTC

noobermin wrote: post #102

stupidcar wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Acknowledging that women are 'vulnerable or marginalised' shouldn't remove their individuality, you can easily have both, but that's beside my point here) I don't think you can easily have both, and this problem underlies much contemporary political conflict. At its core is a pervasive hypocrisy: people readily engage in broad, often negative, stereotyping about groups they oppose, or are not a member of, while agg…

The only problem I have is people often say this as if "both sides do it" while that neglects the reality of the intensity of depth of hypocrisy you point out on either side. There isn't a symmetry here between the bigotry of the right and the intolerance of the left, and I get very suspicious of people who make a false symmetry argument.

Well then, what does this imbalance look like to you? I suspect it looks different to me (rhetorical statement I have no idea which side you're on). I too feel like we miss some interesting subtlety by claiming both sides do it equally. But really how can we make any progress socially/politically unless we get over it and both agree it happens on both sides? We're never going to find an objective answer "to who does it worst". Let's just stop doing it...

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#140

Post by malvosenior » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

pasquinelli wrote: post #138

mpweiher wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the "patriarchy" is perpetrated by both men and women and negatively affects both men and women, maybe "patriarchy" is a bit of a misnomer?

why quibble over the word? you're talking about gender roles, men are supposed to be big and tough and take charge, and womem are supposed to be nurturing and demure and receptive to being taken charge of. it's a model with men in control, patriarchy is a fine word for that. of course if you can't hack your assigned gender role you'll catch shit from those that can. those that can hack their gender role may be men or…

It’s not a useful term because it bakes a ton of political ideas into a concept everyone is expected to accept. Mainly that our society is somehow intelligently designed to put men in charge and that it’s not a mix of biology and random happenstance that got us where we are today. It also implies that men actually are in charge. Some men may be but the vast majority are not. If incarceration and university enrollment numbers are examined, it might even look like men as a class are the oppressed not the oppressors.