Regarding the Em Dash • Hacker News Board

Re: Regarding the Em Dash

#161

Post by open-source-ux » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 4:22 PM UTC

Udo_Schmitz wrote: post #150

open-source-ux wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can put a thin space before and after the em dash. This space is narrower than a normal letter space. Example with a normal space: The quick brown fox jumps over — and, sometimes, under — the lazy dog. Example with a thin space: The quick brown fox jumps over — and, sometimes, under — the lazy dog. This Smashing Magazine article discusses spaces in more detail. At the bottom of the article is a list of different…

What font do you use to read hackernews? Because in Verdana those are exactly the same. Tried some other fonts in inspector but think your thin spaces could be even thinner :)

What font do you use to read hackernews?

I'm using the default Verdana font. Here's a screenshot of what the post looks like on my computer (Firefox on Windows).

https://imgur.com/a/QqmeC

I guess I should have added a disclaimer to say that the thin space may not always appear correctly depending on the browser/platform/setup etc. :-)

Re: Regarding the Em Dash

#162

Post by CharlesW » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 4:24 PM UTC

KC8ZKF wrote: post #56

CharlesW wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I learned to type on an IBM Selectric, I use mostly mono-spaced fonts, and two spaces after a full stop makes perfect sense. It's still considered fine to do that when using monospaced fonts, just as using the prime symbol (') instead of an apostrophe (’) won't raise any eyebrows in that scenario. When your goal is to make something that looks like it was typeset by someone with an awareness of typographical conven…

"When your goal is to make something that looks like it was typeset by someone with an awareness of typographical conventions..." If by that you mean typesetting, I agree. Typing and typesetting are two different activities. LaTex, for example, will typeset both ".(one space)" and ".(two spaces)" into the same white space that is somewhat larger than one typed space and somewhat smaller than two.

> If by that you mean typesetting, I agree. Typing and typesetting are two different activities.

Exactly, and many (non-developer) folks may not have ever experienced the "two spaces after sentences" convention if they haven't sat in a typing class with old-school typewriters, and haven't been instructed on formatting monospaced type.

Re: Regarding the Em Dash

#163

Post by WovenTales » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 4:40 PM UTC

seandougall wrote: post #64

cryptonector wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two hyphens is plenty. Three is calling attention to it. One is pitiful. While we're on this subject, wide spacing between sentence-ending periods and the next sentence is the Right Way (tm). In ASCII that's two spaces. We're not animals. Let's behave accordingly.

> While we're on this subject, wide spacing between sentence-ending periods and the next sentence is the Right Way (tm). This convention started with typewriters, and typesetters (e.g. my parents) will tell you that it is only considered correct in monospace fonts. This is also why HTML takes the liberty of reducing whitespace down to a single space character unless you go out of your way to use an  .

There's an article I keep in my bookmarks for times like this: http://www.heracliteanriver.com/?p=324

In short, wider sentence spacing goes back to the first English standards of the eighteenth century – including the first nine editions of the Chicago Manual of Style, and even the tenth still had it as an en-space – and only really started falling out of favour in the twenties. Typewriters had limited effect, but the automated typesetters that suceeded them were actually what killed it off, to simplify the programming.

I typically do still type a single space, but I take full advantage of my preferred TeX flavour's (ConTeXt) automatic conversion to wider spaces. One successful, post-education convert here!

Re: Regarding the Em Dash

#164

Post by WovenTales » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 4:51 PM UTC

leephillips wrote: post #148

OliverJones wrote: post #142

I learned old-school printing in high school. We had a press with a flatbed and screw. More to the point, we had lower and upper cases filled with steel type, including lots of different dashes and spaces. Our teacher was a traditionalist. He taught us such things as how to justify a line of type. Narrowing a line involved switching "thicks" (nominal space slugs) for "middles" in an artful way. Widening it involved s…

People who use [La]TeX tend to become a bit obsessive over typographic details, as well. What do you think of that program? (Very interesting comment, by the way.)

Something about LaTeX just doesn't click for me, and you'll never in regular use have any need for pure TeX. Luckily, there's ConTeXt which (unsearchable name and comparatively small support base aside) is a very enjoyable flavour and allows for some beautiful typesetting. Maybe not worth it to switch if you're already used to LaTeX, but if you've never used any of the family, I highly recommend giving one or the other a try.

Re: Regarding the Em Dash

#165

Post by username223 » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 4:53 PM UTC

chrismorgan wrote: post #141

colanderman wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I’m a big fan of the compose key for such matters. (Both OS X and Linux.) The mnemonics I find easier to remember. • Compose . . → … • Compose " → “ and ” • Compose ' → ‘ and ’ • Compose / = → ≠ • Compose + - → ± • (couldn't figure out ≈) • Compose • Compose > = → ≥ • Compose o o → ° • (no compose for π)

~~ → ≈ I’ve customised my Compose key quite a bit. I added things like: - Greek characters from Vim’s digraphs, so p star = π, l star = λ, &c. (Looks like WinCompose’s defaults now actually include asterisk-first ones, star p → π, so I might drop my additions.) - Emoji, :), :D, XD, :/, :S, &c. - Improved curly quotes, whereby I super-conveniently type curly quotes all the time: ;; → ‘, :: → “, '' → ’, "" → ”. (Look a…

> - Emoji, :), :D, XD, :/, :S, &c.

Aagh! I mean... and so it comes full circle. Does no one remember when "emoticons" were sideways ASCII art? Does no one wonder why entry (8) in a list gets turned into "open paren smiley face with sunglasses?" Kids these days...

Re: Regarding the Em Dash

#166

Post by ravenstine » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 5:02 PM UTC

calebm wrote: post #97

This is awesome :) I've been using the em-dash a lot recently, but didn't even know it had a name. It often seems more natural than using semicolons— semicolons often feel more formal and cold.

I still prefer semicolons when connecting two related thoughts, whereas it seems that em-dashes are most often used as a pause or a pseudo-comma. The brilliance of the semicolon is that you can connect two or more closely related sentences without a full stop. Em-dashes can't be used to connect multiple complete sentences. Semicolons are really more powerful than em-dashes, less pretty they may be.

Re: Regarding the Em Dash

#167

Post by krsdcbl » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 5:04 PM UTC

cryptonector wrote: post #43

Yes! I use em dashes quite often. I tire of commas and parenthesis. I do prefer two short dashes together, because I enjoy ASCII. I also use short dashes as parenthesis sometimes, -like this-, but this doesn't always work well as some UIs use that for strikethrough. EDIT: Do please put whitespace around em dashes.

To your edit: i wouldn't recommend, the EM dash should generally be used without surrounding spaces.

It is dimensioned to set a proper pause in the text and will rip holes in your text body if surrounded by so much additional white space.

You also wouldn't put a space before a period . (Use an EN dash with spaces, if you must)

Re: Regarding the Em Dash

#168

Post by steamer25 » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 5:34 PM UTC

Udo_Schmitz wrote: post #147

quietbritishjim wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I land on the side favoring a space on each side of the dash. > Horrible; I strongly disagree. A closed em-dash—like this—looks jarringly like the words either side of it are closely related, as if by an extra-long hyphen. For example, in t previous sentence, “this—looks” visually appears to me to be a single compound entity, which is ironic considering that the intention was to make them appear especially separat…

Hackernews defaults to Verdana—a known terrible font-design. Dashes should be visibly thinner than hyphens. And the reply-box is in monospace, so I can't see difference between the en- and the em-dash. In German we use the en-dash with leading and trailing space instead of the em-dash.

If anyone else was surprised as I was to hear that Verdana was disliked, here's the most compelling argument I found against it:

While it was meticulously designed for on-screen legibility, these days higher resolution screens and anti-aliasing, etc. are a better solution than meddling with the letter shapes e.g., taller x-heights, bigger openings, etc.

One detractor did allow for Verdana when rendering fine-print/legalese at very small font sizes--as long as it was unlikely to be printed.

Re: Regarding the Em Dash

#169

Post by colanderman » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 5:36 PM UTC

chrismorgan wrote: post #141

colanderman wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I’m a big fan of the compose key for such matters. (Both OS X and Linux.) The mnemonics I find easier to remember. • Compose . . → … • Compose " → “ and ” • Compose ' → ‘ and ’ • Compose / = → ≠ • Compose + - → ± • (couldn't figure out ≈) • Compose • Compose > = → ≥ • Compose o o → ° • (no compose for π)

~~ → ≈ I’ve customised my Compose key quite a bit. I added things like: - Greek characters from Vim’s digraphs, so p star = π, l star = λ, &c. (Looks like WinCompose’s defaults now actually include asterisk-first ones, star p → π, so I might drop my additions.) - Emoji, :), :D, XD, :/, :S, &c. - Improved curly quotes, whereby I super-conveniently type curly quotes all the time: ;; → ‘, :: → “, '' → ’, "" → ”. (Look a…

~~ doesn't work on OS X ;)

Re: Regarding the Em Dash

#170

Post by leephillips » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 5:48 PM UTC

WovenTales wrote: post #164

leephillips wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who use [La]TeX tend to become a bit obsessive over typographic details, as well. What do you think of that program? (Very interesting comment, by the way.)

Something about LaTeX just doesn't click for me, and you'll never in regular use have any need for pure TeX. Luckily, there's ConTeXt which (unsearchable name and comparatively small support base aside) is a very enjoyable flavour and allows for some beautiful typesetting. Maybe not worth it to switch if you're already used to LaTeX, but if you've never used any of the family, I highly recommend giving one or the oth…

If by "pure TeX" you mean Plain TeX, I use it, as well as LaTeX (I know I'm far from alone here). i agree that ConTeXt is a great project, with many advantages over LaTeX.