Increased amygdala responses after psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression • Hacker News Board

Re: Increased amygdala responses after psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression

#41

Post by SolaceQuantum » Sat, Jan 06, 2018, 5:56 PM UTC

indescions_2018 wrote: post #14

Joins other studies from NYU investigating psilocybin mitigation of anxiety in advanced stage cancer patients. As well as a comprehensive survey by psychiatrists at Johns Hopkins showing 84% of those who tripped describing the experience as somewhat beneficial: Survey study of challenging experiences after ingesting psilocybin mushrooms http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/026988111666263... As federal dollar…

Are there any studies on psilocybin mushrooms on schizophrenia-spectrum people?

Re: Increased amygdala responses after psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression

#42

Post by make3 » Sat, Jan 06, 2018, 6:00 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #20

amelius wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the main issue is that currently clinical treatment requires years of suffering, while a mushroom may solve the problem in a few weeks.

Contemporary clinical practice tends toward conservation of everyone's time. The days of weekly appointments with a Freudian analyst are largely past, if they ever were for anyone other than well off clients who could afford such things. Contemporary clinical practice for treating depression tends toward prescriptions for clinically tested anti-depressants. Many of the mild main stream anti-depressants have moderatel…

cognitive behavioral therapy (cbt) is also what is prescribed, isn't it, with regular light cardiovascular exercise and mindfulness meditation

Re: Increased amygdala responses after psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression

#43

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jan 06, 2018, 6:02 PM UTC

cle wrote: post #35

naasking wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue is abuse potential. Most of these drugs can be used to "trip," or have a psychedelic experience, meaning it would likely be made illegal very quickly. But why is tripping considered abuse? Particularly in cases where overdosing is difficult or impossible (like with marijuana). These requirements just seem asinine.

Because in the late 60s and 70s, US politicians needed scapegoats to blame for the social unrest, and the psychedelic movement with prominent figureheads like Timothy Leary was an easy target. Demonizing and criminalizing their drugs of choice gave them cause to imprison them and break up their social movements. So campaigns and institutions were established to proselytize the dangers of whatever drugs they were usin…

[deleted]

Re: Increased amygdala responses after psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression

#44

Post by make3 » Sat, Jan 06, 2018, 6:02 PM UTC

insickness wrote: post #13

On a related topic, a friend of mine with treatment-resistant depression has been undergoing ketamine treatments from a doctor. He says there isn't a dramatic improvement but it helps alleviate catastrophic thinking. The hour-long treatments themselves are relaxing, he says, almost like a trip to a spa. The sessions are expensive, even when partially covered by insurance.

does he do cbt? does he do regular light cardiovascular exercise? does he do mindfulness mediation? all of this has proven effectiveness. sure, try ketamin, but also try the stuff that's known to work

Re: Increased amygdala responses after psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression

#45

Post by ghostbrainalpha » Sat, Jan 06, 2018, 6:41 PM UTC

jimnotgym wrote: post #22

This is fascinating as this is the plague of our generation. depression is such a debilitating condition, and in the UK mental health care has fallen to the level where it doesn't really exist outside of prescription medication. There was an earlier study in the UK [0] which showed similar effects, again on a small sample. The following interested me > A clinical trial, which took years and significant money to compl…

It will be trivial to "modify" the mushroom and then put it in pill form, and it will be easy to patent it when they do it. Big pharma will happily make money selling us what we could be growing in our backyards, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Many people with depression, also would like to avoid the trip (especially people who have to work), and if Big Pharma spends millions creating a non psychoactive effective treatment regimen derived from mushrooms, that would be fantastic. And that won't be something we could ever hope to grow in our backyards without the help of the pharmaceutical industry.

Re: Increased amygdala responses after psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression

#46

Post by Sir_Cmpwn » Sat, Jan 06, 2018, 6:48 PM UTC

ghostbrainalpha wrote: post #45

jimnotgym wrote: post #22

This is fascinating as this is the plague of our generation. depression is such a debilitating condition, and in the UK mental health care has fallen to the level where it doesn't really exist outside of prescription medication. There was an earlier study in the UK [0] which showed similar effects, again on a small sample. The following interested me > A clinical trial, which took years and significant money to compl…

It will be trivial to "modify" the mushroom and then put it in pill form, and it will be easy to patent it when they do it. Big pharma will happily make money selling us what we could be growing in our backyards, and there is nothing wrong with that. Many people with depression, also would like to avoid the trip (especially people who have to work), and if Big Pharma spends millions creating a non psychoactive effect…

What if the trip was necessary for effective treatment?

Re: Increased amygdala responses after psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression

#47

Post by TheAdamAndChe » Sat, Jan 06, 2018, 6:50 PM UTC

code_duck wrote: post #32

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> saying they make you 'trip' and that's all is a bit reductionist too, wouldn't you say? That's not all I said. First I compared the pharmacodynamics of the two(reuptake inhibition leading to better utilization of existing serotonin of SSRI vs direct serotonin receptor agonism of psilocybin), then I compared the psychological effects(fewer acute psychiatric effects in SSRI vs the "trip" of psilocybin). I personally…

I don't doubt that one would not want to take MDMA daily or regularly, and I doubt it will ever be prescribed or used like that - at least not in recreational doses. Their potential in large doses seems to be in therapeutic intervention. If you know, I'd love to hear more about the mechanisms of psilocybin in the way you described SSRIs - I've done some reading but my understanding is certainly at the layman level. H…

> I'd love to hear more about the mechanisms of psilocybin in the way you described SSRIs

Sure, but keep in mind that 1) I'm just a hobbyist and what I think may be wrong, and 2) most of what I studied was a few years ago, things may have changed since then.

Serotonin is a neurotransmitter that acts upon serotonin(5-HT) receptors. Modification of these receptors by serotonin help control several systems of the brain, many of which are still being researched. Not all serotonin receptors are the same, and those different receptors affect different systems of the body differently, as well as interact with drugs differently. Examples of these are 5-HT1A, 5-HT2A, 5-HT2B, and many many others.

Psilocybin partially activates(aka partially agonizes[1]) several serotonin receptors, mostly 5-HT2B and 5-HT2C receptors, but also 5-HT2A. 5-HT2C regulates regulates mood, anxiety, feeding, and reproductive behavior[2], while 5-HT2A links to the visual cortex and orbitofrontal cortex[3]. Agonism of these receptors modifies those systems they're linked to, causing emotional, behavioral, and visuospacial changes.

Note how different this is from an SSRI. SSRIs basically increase existing serotonin, while this drug activates the receptors of the brain itself.

A big reason psilocybin isn't physically dangerous(you can't die from OD) is because it's just a partial agonist, meaning it doesn't fully link into the receptor and activate it. There do exist full agonists like 25C-NBOMe that are psychedelic, but are also incredibly dangerous. You can die from those. If you are interested in psychedelics, IMO it's _super_ interesting to read about the history of the 2C generation of drugs.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_agonist

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-HT2C_receptor

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-HT2A_receptor

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25C-NBOMe

Re: Increased amygdala responses after psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression

#48

Post by TheAdamAndChe » Sat, Jan 06, 2018, 6:54 PM UTC

psychedelicnope wrote: post #21

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #16

Anecdotally, one-time use of LSD(which acts similarly to psilocybin, primarily through 5-ht2a agonism) set me on a path to self improvement. I had depression for years during my puberty, teens, and early adulthood. I contemplated suicide regularly and had a pessimistic outlook on life. I dropped out of college in my first semester despite taking and passing multiple AP classes in high school because I didn't see the…

Also anecdotally, I took a fairly large amount of magic mushrooms once, and it was an awful episode that left me with anxiety attacks for many months afterwards. I saw no life improvement from this experience, and regret having ever dabbled recreationally.

This is why I want more research, but don't necessarily recommend it. "Bad trips" are common enough and can cause a strong enough negative reaction to make its use very risky.

Re: Increased amygdala responses after psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression

#49

Post by heavenlyblue » Sat, Jan 06, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

ttul wrote: post #34

gt_ wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds questionable. Many substances with high abuse potential are used by medicine, and alcohol has no medical benefits that I know of but creates loads of problems everywhere I look. I don’t feel like I’m making any non-obvious points.

You obviously have never done mushrooms. You can’t abuse mushrooms. They are non addictive and self limiting.

You can abuse mushrooms if you take them in lower dosages. This keeps the antidepressant effect, but doesn't allow you to trip.

I had done this - nothing bad happened to me, but not suggesting to try this at home. The point still stands though: please don't misinform people around you since that just reinforces the negative agenda around theses substances.

Re: Increased amygdala responses after psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression

#50

Post by blurbleblurble » Sat, Jan 06, 2018, 7:08 PM UTC

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #46

ghostbrainalpha wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will be trivial to "modify" the mushroom and then put it in pill form, and it will be easy to patent it when they do it. Big pharma will happily make money selling us what we could be growing in our backyards, and there is nothing wrong with that. Many people with depression, also would like to avoid the trip (especially people who have to work), and if Big Pharma spends millions creating a non psychoactive effect…

What if the trip was necessary for effective treatment?

To some degree, it absolutely is. At the very least, your reality needs to shift. That's the whole idea of healing depression... there are things in your reality that need shifting.

I'm also sure that psilocybin isn't the only molecule involved. And I'm also sure that if someone isn't ready to take active ownership of their mental health into taking psilocybin could be just as moot as any other substance.

Healing is a deeply embedded, embodied process. If you're experiencing depression, there's probably more than one switch that needs to get flipped on the switchboard, and a lot of dials that need to get retuned, along with habits, beliefs and perspectives that need questioning.

Depression is bred out of dehumanizing norms in belief and habit. You can't just continue to go about practicing the very same things that feed your depression, take a magic pill and suddenly feel well adapted. There's going to have to be profound realization.

That's exactly what a "trip" is. If you don't want to get jarred by your own realizations, you can microdose. You won't "trip" in a heavy sense, but you very well might uncover some painful things you've been neglecting for a very long time. Hopefully then you will do what you've been needing to do for a long time: grieve.