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Meltdown, aka “Dear Intel, you suck”

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Re: Meltdown, aka “Dear Intel, you suck”

#151
post #40

I don’t understand the Intel hate. It’s not like their engineers are dumb or lazy. This exploit is very hard to imagine before now. And it’s there because chip makers were trying to wring out more performance. It’s unfortunate if anythig.

> This exploit is very hard to imagine before now. It's really not. It's the sort of thing you wonder after first learning about out-of-order and speculative execution in a computer architecture class, but your professor assures you that implementors have been very careful to ensure any partial execution is properly flushed and rolled back. Then it turns out that, nope, no one's actually been keeping an eye on this a…

> but your professor assures you that implementors have been very careful to ensure any partial execution is properly flushed and rolled back.

And, at the time, your professor was correct, to the extent of what he/she defined as "any partial execution".

But his/her definition of "partial execution" only considered state changes to the programmer visible CPU architecture state (i.e., the user level register set and the flags register). Their definition ignored the cache, because at the time the cache was considered simply a transparent optimization system that did not effect the values of contents of the CPU architectural state.

And in a way, that definition is still valid, even after the knowledge of these exploits. The CPU architectural state (registers/flags), even after executing exploit code, is exactly what it would have been had sequential execution happened. The exploit takes advantage of the fact that you can arrange the right set of code to run just the right way to leave a different state in the _cache_ (i.e., that thing believed to have been merely a transparent optimization).

It turns out now that the belief in the cache being transparent and only providing optimizations was the flaw in the belief system at the time.

Re: Meltdown, aka “Dear Intel, you suck”

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about on ARM?

Has QNX been ported to ARM? Interesting! edit: apparently it has been: http://www.qnx.com/developers/docs/6.5.0/index.jsp?topic=%2F...

I would assume that majority of QNX deployments are on ARM these days and also ARM is the only platform supported by complete QNX "ecosystem" as some parts are not available for x86 (which is the only other currently supported platform).

Wikipedia states that supported platforms historically were i386, PowerPC, MIPS, SuperH and ARM. And I would not be too surprised if there was support for Altera Nios-II with MMU in the times when QNX was owned by Harman (As at least the touch screen part of some versions of Harman made Audi MMI is based on NiosII).

Re: Meltdown, aka “Dear Intel, you suck”

#153
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s been discussed for years by people who didn’t need to see the exploit to know that it had to be there. Sane people have been avoiding timesharing for critical work on x86 since Core 2. Life-safety work has no business in a public cloud.

This is a recurring pattern that just blows my mind: typically some small, often academic, group knows about some problem or potential problem that everybody else is ignoring until it becomes un-ignorable. Anthopogenic climate change falls into this category. I have to wonder, first, what sort of obvious stupid self-destructive things am I doing right now but ignoring. And second, how can we build systems that system…

It is not really comparable to climate change - people have been assuming that everything is OK, but there is no well-organized campaign to persuade people that these exploits don't exist now there is good evidence that they do.

There is one attitude that exacerbates those problems that are real - the tacit assumption that concerns do not count for anything until an exploit has been demonstrated.

Re: Meltdown, aka “Dear Intel, you suck”

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't know that. The chipmaking business is insular and pretty incestuous, I wonder if the same engineers built both speculative execution units. I've got a friend in CPU design and he's only got about 50 companies he can work for in the world where he could do the same job he does now

There are only so many ways to accelerate a CPU by speculating. I’ve written RTL that speculatively fetches data from memory in order to avoid bubbles in a pipeline. Not a CPU, but the concept is exactly the same. If somebody had assigned me to a CPU project without guidance from a security architect and ask me to speculate reads, I’d probably have done the same as Intel. The chance that the same guy did both CPUs is…

In the never ending quest for yet more performance out of memory systems that are ever slower than the CPU's, this is likely exactly how it happened. The speculative reads, because they were speculative, were likely viewed as harmless (because the instruction that generated the read would never be committed if the speculation missed anyway, so CPU state (registers/flags) would not be changed improperly).

And if anyone even considered the results of the reads, they likely saw them as nothing more than free cache pre-fetch instructions that would enhance performance should the speculative path turn out to be the correct path after-all.

And because the push was for yet more performance, free cache pre-fetch operations were likely viewed as a great bonus.

Re: Meltdown, aka “Dear Intel, you suck”

#155
post #116
post #100

Is it the right time to call out the fundamental wrongness of Intel(/Apple/Microsoft/etc) outrage narratives? I mean I get it: large corporations (1) don't necessarily have my interests at heart; (2) are not able to perfectly execute (on extremely large and complicated) products and systems. um. This is as radical as taking a stand that the sun sets in the west. I like HN because of the promise that people think just…

The three big BSDs aren't exactly obscure, they might not have the highest server market share compared to windows and linux but they are the next on the list and often a primary choice for a variety of companies critical infrastructure, the most commonly sighted example these days is netflix. I think the outrage is justified.

The language of the post is incredibly incendiary -- they sound no different than some of the extremists / terrorists talking about their enemies.

At the end of the day, we are all humans and the chip designers screwed up in a big way. But this issue is so complex and obscure that it's been unknown for 20+ years.

Re: Meltdown, aka “Dear Intel, you suck”

#156
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just crowdsource a few billion $ for R&D and we are good to go.

The first and most important phases of hardware design are a lot like software development. If open source folks can write an OS without much funding, then they can design a CPU.

> If open source folks can write an OS without much funding, then they can design a CPU

Large open source projects tend to have significant amount of funding - think about Chrome, OpenJDK, the Linux Kernel...

Re: Meltdown, aka “Dear Intel, you suck”

#157
post #40

I don’t understand the Intel hate. It’s not like their engineers are dumb or lazy. This exploit is very hard to imagine before now. And it’s there because chip makers were trying to wring out more performance. It’s unfortunate if anythig.

From my perspective: I've been singing Intel's praises for the last decade as they regularly (for my own tests/usage) beat out AMD in performance, clock for clock if not dollar for dollar. With this recent news, I feel like part of the reason that Intel has been doing so well is that they have been _cheating_.

I don't think this is equivalent to the VW emissions cheating ... I guess we could find out otherwise later but if so it would amaze me that such a large and variable organization kept a secret for 20 years.

Re: Meltdown, aka “Dear Intel, you suck”

#158
post #136
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We also tried to reproduce the Meltdown bug on several ARM and AMD CPUs. However, we did not manage to successfully leak kernel memory with the attack de- scribed in Section 5, neither on ARM nor on AMD. The reasons for this can be manifold. First of all, our im- plementation might simply be too slow and a more opti- mized version might succeed. For instance, a more shal- low out-of-order execution pipeline could t…

The section 3 toy example is demonstrating that OOO execution can cause instructions after a faulting instruction to be speculatively executed, but in that example the subsequent instructions do not depend on the result of the faulting instruction. AMD's claim is that the result of the faulting instruction can never end up affecting a later speculated instruction - ie, for Intel the bad access says "here's the value…

Thanks for the explanation. So it's down to when the access check is performed. I wonder why Intel did it the way they did, performance maybe?

Re: Meltdown, aka “Dear Intel, you suck”

#159
post #72
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there is the ME for one, an omnipotent, mandatory backdoor. Then there are _many_ undocumented opcodes. What does 0f0d00 do? What 0f78c0? What dbe0? I can continue for a very long time. These are just some known unknowns. If you still need more reasons, they are uncooperative when it comes to certain other firmware blobs. If you are open to arguments, there are many good reasons to take a negative stance toward…

To be fair gmail flags basically any code, if it's zipped i've found it only needs to vaguely resemble code. basically gmail is only safe for sending image formats and document formats that it knows of and don't contain macros, then it's just a crapshoot that you don't get matched a false positive. Gmail is far from developer friendly anymore.

You can't even send encrypted 7zip archives through Gmail. Well, you can, but they'll block the download claiming it's not safe.

Re: Meltdown, aka “Dear Intel, you suck”

#160
post #100

Is it the right time to call out the fundamental wrongness of Intel(/Apple/Microsoft/etc) outrage narratives? I mean I get it: large corporations (1) don't necessarily have my interests at heart; (2) are not able to perfectly execute (on extremely large and complicated) products and systems. um. This is as radical as taking a stand that the sun sets in the west. I like HN because of the promise that people think just…

Bleh. It’s the right time, because everyone’s thinking it.

To be fair, you look at those CPU utilization graphs, and the optimization bonus for this sacrifice of security is notable. The benefits are real, for these computation strategies. The reality is that yet again, we must sacrifice convenience in the name of security. This is why we can’t have nice things.

Ultimately, though, your pining for dignified silence and stoicism as the one true lowest common denominator is to be unrequited. Civilization among the civilized is not always a good thing. We all know that somewhere deep within the unknown recesses of some massive social planning department, circuits are being designed to lock us in, and make us pay for stepping out of line. Keep that fact in the front of your mind. Not as a goof. Not as a pacifier or placebo.

It’s all bullshit. It’s a valid gripe. It bears repeating.

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