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Where Did All the Girl Geeks Go?

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Re: Where Did All the Girl Geeks Go?

#21

Post by amichail »

roadtripgeek wrote: post #20
amichail wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with managing programmers? If you really want to, I'm sure you can contribute some code as well.

There's nothing wrong with managing programmers. It was just the assumption that I didn't want to "get my hands dirty" because I was female that bothered me. I don't know if it's common for project managers to contribute code in other companies. At husband's company, it is pretty much unheard of for for a project manager to write code. Project manager tends to be more of a technical writing/managerial position in his…

At a company such as Microsoft, you can become a software architect. This means you can focus on the major design issues and have developers implement your design. You can write code, but you don't have to write that much.

As you grow older, you will want to write less code and focus more on software architecture and management of programmers.

Re: Where Did All the Girl Geeks Go?

#23

Post by roadtripgeek »

amichail wrote: post #21
roadtripgeek wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing wrong with managing programmers. It was just the assumption that I didn't want to "get my hands dirty" because I was female that bothered me. I don't know if it's common for project managers to contribute code in other companies. At husband's company, it is pretty much unheard of for for a project manager to write code. Project manager tends to be more of a technical writing/managerial position in his…

At a company such as Microsoft, you can become a software architect. This means you can focus on the major design issues and have developers implement your design. You can write code, but you don't have to write that much. As you grow older, you will want to write less code and focus more on software architecture and management of programmers.

Ah, ok. That makes more sense, although it is quite different from what my husband's company considers "managing coders" to be. That does sound more in line with what I want to do long term. Thanks for giving me a different view.

Re: Where Did All the Girl Geeks Go?

#24

Post by xlnt »

DaniFong wrote: post #19

"Some studies have shown that as soon as girls turn 12—and maybe now it is even younger—they're so into their social image and being liked by boys that they dumb themselves down so not to be seen as a geek," Yusupova said." I wonder if this has more to do with western high schools than our culture at large. I dropped out on my twelfth birthday . While I did encounter social pressure to move into more sanctioned roles…

gender stereotyping by parents begins at birth.

Re: Where Did All the Girl Geeks Go?

#25

Post by xlnt »

yters wrote: post #8
Tichy wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's nice to be able to share things. Presumably it could also get too much (computer stuff all the time), but couples of the same profession seem to be quite common. Besides, computers are among the most interesting things, especially because most other things can be analyzed in terms of computers.

People aren't analyzable by computers, at least on an individual basis. Women tend to be more interested in individual relationships than men, and you can't have a relationship with a computer. In my opinion, it is pretty obvious from the clearly differing motivations of the genders why there is such a gender divide in academics. Maybe it has to do with intelligence, but "intelligence" seems to largely be determined…

If the reason that there are less women in technical subjects is that their minds have been crippled by their upbringing (at a higher rate, for these particular subjects), then that is an important problem.

Re: Where Did All the Girl Geeks Go?

#26

Post by roadtripgeek »

timr wrote: post #11
roadtripgeek wrote: post #6

We're still here. Based on my personal experience, there are plenty of reasons why geek girls are avoiding CS. For starters, I've had to deal with a few of my classmates make lame jokes,like boobs and brains being an inverse ratio and following that up with "Oh hey, you're not flat chested. Haha." It's a no win situation for me. If I complain, I'm too sensitive. If I say something back, I'm a bitch. I've also had pro…

"They look sort of baffled when I explain that no, I want to write code, not manage coders." Not to condescend, but that will change in ten years. I base this not on your gender, but on the observation that there are very few old programmers. Everyone debates the reason for this (i.e. is it age discrimination, or is it programmer preference?) but the fact remains that most programmers end up doing other things as the…

Just out of curiosity, what is the cut off point between young and old programmers? If it's somewhere between 40-50, I would agree that you see fewer programmers in this age range. But I think that also has something to do with fewer positions available at the top compared to all the junior level positions.

If you assume the average programmer will start their career by their mid 20s, ten years seems a little early for "old" programmers to start a mass defection. I would not be surprised if many of the commenters here could be considered "old programmers" by that definition. I don't have a big sample, but in my experience, you're not an "old" programmer until you hit 45-50.

Re: Where Did All the Girl Geeks Go?

#27

Post by demallien »

yters wrote: post #8
Tichy wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's nice to be able to share things. Presumably it could also get too much (computer stuff all the time), but couples of the same profession seem to be quite common. Besides, computers are among the most interesting things, especially because most other things can be analyzed in terms of computers.

People aren't analyzable by computers, at least on an individual basis. Women tend to be more interested in individual relationships than men, and you can't have a relationship with a computer. In my opinion, it is pretty obvious from the clearly differing motivations of the genders why there is such a gender divide in academics. Maybe it has to do with intelligence, but "intelligence" seems to largely be determined…

"Women tend to be more interested in individual relationships than men, and you can't have a relationship with a computer."

OK, firstly, my Mac started crying when he read that. Poor mac!

Secondly, the broad generalisations that you make about men and women is exactly the problem. Here's a hint: Women working in IT, and particularly programming, are there precisely because we too are interested in technical subjects and having very analytical minds. The problem is, as roadtripgeek has already alluded to, men see us in the workplace, and make the assumption that we are just like the hairdresser, or the secretary that they talk to on coffee breaks: into communications more than cold hard code.

I look at my situation. My entire floor at the ofice is taken up by programmers and their direct managers. I am the only woman on the floor. It's not the technical conversations that get me, it's all the other crap. Guys that want to talk about poker, or brewing beer, or the football results, or how they got lucky with a hot babe in the carpark of the Sheraton last weekend. Or it's when they decide to use a clip from a porno film as the test flow for a new product that we are working on. Or the fact that a few of the guys have decided that, seeing as I'm the only woman on the floor, that I shouldn't have a bathroom all to myself, and who won't even put the damned seat back down after they have finished pissing!

It's all that crap that makes IT unattractive for women, not the actual work itself.

Personally, like many of us here on HN, I'm working on my exit strategy - work for myself, where I can still code my little heart out, without having to put up with all the male bonding crap that I'm automatically excluded from in the workplace.

Owning a startup FTW...

Re: Where Did All the Girl Geeks Go?

#28

Post by Tichy »

demallien wrote: post #27
yters wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People aren't analyzable by computers, at least on an individual basis. Women tend to be more interested in individual relationships than men, and you can't have a relationship with a computer. In my opinion, it is pretty obvious from the clearly differing motivations of the genders why there is such a gender divide in academics. Maybe it has to do with intelligence, but "intelligence" seems to largely be determined…

"Women tend to be more interested in individual relationships than men, and you can't have a relationship with a computer." OK, firstly, my Mac started crying when he read that. Poor mac! Secondly, the broad generalisations that you make about men and women is exactly the problem. Here's a hint: Women working in IT, and particularly programming, are there precisely because we too are interested in technical subjects…

Voted up for the crying Mac, but other than that I have to say you dish out just as many stereotypes as you complain about receiving. I am male but I don't care about beer or football, and I would never spread porn in the workplace. If I got lucky with hot babes frequently, maybe I would brag about it - but I wonder, what exactly would you be interested in talking about with men? Seems to me that relationship issues are one of the common themes of human conversation.

Re: Where Did All the Girl Geeks Go?

#29

Post by demallien »

Tichy wrote: post #28
demallien wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Women tend to be more interested in individual relationships than men, and you can't have a relationship with a computer." OK, firstly, my Mac started crying when he read that. Poor mac! Secondly, the broad generalisations that you make about men and women is exactly the problem. Here's a hint: Women working in IT, and particularly programming, are there precisely because we too are interested in technical subjects…

Voted up for the crying Mac, but other than that I have to say you dish out just as many stereotypes as you complain about receiving. I am male but I don't care about beer or football, and I would never spread porn in the workplace. If I got lucky with hot babes frequently, maybe I would brag about it - but I wonder, what exactly would you be interested in talking about with men? Seems to me that relationship issues…

blink

Stereotypes? Where? I wasn't making generalisations, I was describing my daily work environment! The fact that you identify that environment as being stereotypically male rather proves my point, don't you think?

Re: Where Did All the Girl Geeks Go?

#30

Post by Tichy »

demallien wrote: post #29
Tichy wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voted up for the crying Mac, but other than that I have to say you dish out just as many stereotypes as you complain about receiving. I am male but I don't care about beer or football, and I would never spread porn in the workplace. If I got lucky with hot babes frequently, maybe I would brag about it - but I wonder, what exactly would you be interested in talking about with men? Seems to me that relationship issues…

blink Stereotypes? Where? I wasn't making generalisations, I was describing my daily work environment! The fact that you identify that environment as being stereotypically male rather proves my point, don't you think?

It just sounds as if you should switch jobs. Certainly not all men/IT departments are like that.
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