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Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

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Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#151

Post by stareatgoats »

meri_dian wrote: post #69
taneq wrote: post #7

So we're not the only: - tool-using animal - fire-using animal - language-using animal - animal which domesticates other animals - animal which builds complex structures Aha! I know! We're the only animal which continually comes up with reasons why we're special.

In each of those categories we're far and away the best. I really don't understand this feeling that humans need to be modest or that describing ourselves as special is wrong. We are special. I think among some people that are frustrated with the human world for whatever - either personal or abstract - reason, there's a feeling of misanthropy that colors their thinking, and so they try to belittle humanity.

It is often bad tone to assume some (more or less unethical) motives behind a contrary view. Why would you do that? is it because of ? The technique seldom lends itself to a balanced discussion and will tend to deteriorate into ad hominem type arguments (I know, I used to do it a lot :-/ ...) . Anyway to your point: I find it probably that all species will find themselves more special than others, and I could easily imagine a conversation between dogs find that they are the most special of all creatures: tell me who can smell as good as we? Eagles would claim to have better eyesight than most etc. Either we as humans can claim to be better than everyone else at everything (clearly false), or claim that we are best at being us, something we share with every other species. A third position, which evaluates species from species-neutral characteristics doesn't seem to exist. And so the modest attitude which you criticize could at least be said to be guided by logic, not misanthropy at all.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#152

Post by joshuaheard »

taneq wrote: post #7

So we're not the only: - tool-using animal - fire-using animal - language-using animal - animal which domesticates other animals - animal which builds complex structures Aha! I know! We're the only animal which continually comes up with reasons why we're special.

According to the book, "Sapiens, A Brief History of Humankind", we are the only animal that utilizes a "shared fiction", ie governmental laws.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#153

Post by meri_dian »

stareatgoats wrote: post #151
meri_dian wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In each of those categories we're far and away the best. I really don't understand this feeling that humans need to be modest or that describing ourselves as special is wrong. We are special. I think among some people that are frustrated with the human world for whatever - either personal or abstract - reason, there's a feeling of misanthropy that colors their thinking, and so they try to belittle humanity.

It is often bad tone to assume some (more or less unethical) motives behind a contrary view. Why would you do that? is it because of ? The technique seldom lends itself to a balanced discussion and will tend to deteriorate into ad hominem type arguments (I know, I used to do it a lot :-/ ...) . Anyway to your point: I find it probably that all species will find themselves more special than others, and I could easily…

I only wrote what I did from what I've seen in my own life. It's an anecdote but common enough for me that I'd imagine it applies to other people too.

And you're right. If other animals were self aware enough to recognize their own exceptional qualities I'm sure they'd be proud of them. Humans have an awful sense of smell. Our vision is good, but animals have better vision. Same for hearing.

But we are extremely good at thinking and cooperating with other members of our species. We're special because we form a highly dynamic super-organism like an ant colony, which amplifies our individual exceptionalism.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#154

Post by weirdwitch »

yipopov wrote: post #43
duncan_bayne wrote: post #9

"Journal of Ethnobiology" "Though Aboriginal rangers and others who deal with bushfires take into account the risks posed by raptors that cause controlled burns to jump across firebreaks, official skepticism about the reality of avian fire-spreading hampers effective planning for landscape management and restoration. Via ethno-ornithological workshops and controlled field experiments with land managers, our collabora…

Yes, this story definitely has a certain WE WUZ feel to it.

Can you explain what this means?

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#155

Post by mortenjorck »

xj9 wrote: post #129
127 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that's pretty much it. I remember going fishing with my uncle as a kid and I was disturbed what I was doing to these animals but my uncle told me that fish can't feel pain. I didn't believe it then, and even less now. To combine the eating of other animals, a rational brain and a mind at peace, you need some amount of self deception. Without it, you can only pick two. For evolutionary reasons, it's obvious…

combine the eating of other animals, a rational brain and a mind at peace, you need some amount of self deception i'm at peace with killing animals for food. i know that they feel pain, but life is pain in general. maybe i'm a terrible person or something, but a good bbq is def worth more than the life of a pig or a cow.

In my worldview, it is simply an immutable law of nature that more complex genera prey upon less complex ones. But as we are complex enough to empathize, we also have the moral responsibility to make the best of our predatory nature, whether that means minimizing the suffering of our prey, or minimizing the ecological impact of our predation.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#156

Post by 52-6F-62 »

DeusExMachina wrote: post #54
taneq wrote: post #7

So we're not the only: - tool-using animal - fire-using animal - language-using animal - animal which domesticates other animals - animal which builds complex structures Aha! I know! We're the only animal which continually comes up with reasons why we're special.

We are the only mammal with consciousness, which leads to knowledge of the future and the discerning of good and evil. Despite the fact that we still don’t understand the least about how consciousness arises in our brain, we are nonetheless the only animal that shows this. Even in cases like monkeys recognizing themselves una mirror, no animal seem to go past that and be aware of the future like we do.

While I sit more on the fence with a lot of the discussions in this overall thread, you're increasingly being proven wrong in this aspect.

For instance, prairie dogs are shown to have a descriptive language: http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/prairie-dogs-language-deco...

I highly recommend reading that one because it's funny and fascinating.

Expt:

Also remarkable was the amount of information crammed into a single chirp lasting a 10th of a second.

"In one 10th of a second, they say 'Tall thin human wearing blue shirt walking slowly across the colony.'"

--

Many Helens—err....—scientists agree: https://io9.gizmodo.com/5937356/prominent-scientists-sign-de...

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#157

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

vasilipupkin wrote: post #135
dorfsmay wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which animal we morally can eat is a huge and difficult concept... In some cultures eating horse meat is normal, in others vegetarianism is the honourable goal. Have you ever asked yourself why you eat or why you don't eat some animals? It is typically a product of the culture we grew up in, rarely the product of an intentional thought process. Would you eat another human? What about another ape? An elephant? A monke…

Why not draw the line at consciousness? don't eat animals that science has proven to have IQ that approaches human 1-3 year old IQ, like parrots, crows, dolphins, etc. all other animals are fair game.

So we can eat humans that also do not have that IQ, right?

Thing about consciousness, in the philosophical sense that you clearly mean it, is that it is completely unempirical and therefore does not exist within the scientific model. I know I have consciousness because I experience it, I assume you have consciousness because you are very like me, you assume these low IQ animals don't have consciousness because they are not like you. There exists no objective measurement of consciousness.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#158

Post by jopsen »

hyperpallium wrote: post #108
taneq wrote: post #7

So we're not the only: - tool-using animal - fire-using animal - language-using animal - animal which domesticates other animals - animal which builds complex structures Aha! I know! We're the only animal which continually comes up with reasons why we're special.

You can argue for their intelligence, but they can't argue for yours.

Lol,

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#159

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

127 wrote: post #117
rtpg wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet a little bit of it in the modern world is rationalization for eating and generally mistreating animals.

I believe that's pretty much it. I remember going fishing with my uncle as a kid and I was disturbed what I was doing to these animals but my uncle told me that fish can't feel pain. I didn't believe it then, and even less now. To combine the eating of other animals, a rational brain and a mind at peace, you need some amount of self deception. Without it, you can only pick two. For evolutionary reasons, it's obvious…

> To combine the eating of other animals, a rational brain and a mind at peace, you need some amount of self deception.

Not necessarily. Many people who eat animals do so because they are not in a position where their nutritional needs can be met by a purely vegetarian diet (largely this is a problem of availability). When it comes to survival, I have a difficult time judging others from my comfortable position of not being in mortal danger.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#160

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

xj9 wrote: post #129
127 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that's pretty much it. I remember going fishing with my uncle as a kid and I was disturbed what I was doing to these animals but my uncle told me that fish can't feel pain. I didn't believe it then, and even less now. To combine the eating of other animals, a rational brain and a mind at peace, you need some amount of self deception. Without it, you can only pick two. For evolutionary reasons, it's obvious…

combine the eating of other animals, a rational brain and a mind at peace, you need some amount of self deception i'm at peace with killing animals for food. i know that they feel pain, but life is pain in general. maybe i'm a terrible person or something, but a good bbq is def worth more than the life of a pig or a cow.

As long as you accept then that there is no moral problem with some superior species coming along and and deciding the same about you, at least your backwards philosophy will be consistent.
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