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Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

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Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#111

Post by DeusExMachina »

robotresearcher wrote: post #82
DeusExMachina wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides the snark, you are right. No other animal understands the concept of sacrificing something today to get something better in the future.

Not at all. Many animals cache food for the winter. Many animals will fight to the death to defend their territory, mates, or offspring. Some animals cultivate crops, e.g, ants growing fungus. Many animals actively forage to feed their offspring.

Those are hardwired instincts, not a conscious reflection on the fact that in the future things might be worse.

In fact they are limited to a specific behavior, like storing food, and not generalized across all things that could happen.

Fighting to defend territory or feeding offspring are strategies that prove successful for the survival of the species, not tied to consciousness of the future.

For example, zebras run away from lions, but only when lions chase them. They are perfectly fine with lions sitting around if all they do is sitting. They don’t think: “at some point that lion will stand up and chase me”

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#112

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

nkoren wrote: post #74
DeusExMachina wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are the only mammal with consciousness, which leads to knowledge of the future and the discerning of good and evil. Despite the fact that we still don’t understand the least about how consciousness arises in our brain, we are nonetheless the only animal that shows this. Even in cases like monkeys recognizing themselves una mirror, no animal seem to go past that and be aware of the future like we do.

Apes are demonstrably aware of the future: https://www.livescience.com/2620-humans-apes-plan.html And also demonstrably have a sense of morality: http://edition.cnn.com/2013/01/19/health/chimpanzee-fairness...

Even rats have demonstrated empathy in the form of aiding other rats out of bad situations knowing they will receive no reward for their troubles.

A skeptic might say that such behavior is simply part of any social animal's instinct, for various reasons, to which I ask: other than being able to rationalize our behavior, what makes human demonstrations of empathy different?

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#113

Post by eeZah7Ux »

blocked_again wrote: post #53
taneq wrote: post #7

So we're not the only: - tool-using animal - fire-using animal - language-using animal - animal which domesticates other animals - animal which builds complex structures Aha! I know! We're the only animal which continually comes up with reasons why we're special.

You can never convince an animal to give it's food in promise of a place in heaven or to die for it's country. That's something only humans are capable of. Beat that!

*its

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#114

Post by roadnottaken »

saguro wrote: post #52
rplnt wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's loads of videos of various parrots bopping and dancing to music. Can't tell if it's learned behavior, but they do it.

Does it even matter? It's a learned behavior in humans too. Nurture plays a far bigger role in what we do than people give it credit for.

I thought that before I had kids...

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#115

Post by dorfsmay »

rtpg wrote: post #86
meri_dian wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In each of those categories we're far and away the best. I really don't understand this feeling that humans need to be modest or that describing ourselves as special is wrong. We are special. I think among some people that are frustrated with the human world for whatever - either personal or abstract - reason, there's a feeling of misanthropy that colors their thinking, and so they try to belittle humanity.

I bet a little bit of it in the modern world is rationalization for eating and generally mistreating animals.

Which animal we morally can eat is a huge and difficult concept...

In some cultures eating horse meat is normal, in others vegetarianism is the honourable goal. Have you ever asked yourself why you eat or why you don't eat some animals? It is typically a product of the culture we grew up in, rarely the product of an intentional thought process.

Would you eat another human? What about another ape? An elephant? A monkey? A cat? A rabbit? A cow? Where do you draw the line?

I once decided that the "mirror test"[1] was my litmus test for eating or not an animal. But then as I looked more into it I realised that that test isn't as straight forward as I thought, lots of false positive, methodology issues (eg: some animal start passing the test after being exposed to mirrors for a long time). And the final blow was that most humans under 6 months fail the test and I decided not to use this test rather than starting to eat human infants.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#116

Post by DeusExMachina »

saguro wrote: post #78
DeusExMachina wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are the only mammal with consciousness, which leads to knowledge of the future and the discerning of good and evil. Despite the fact that we still don’t understand the least about how consciousness arises in our brain, we are nonetheless the only animal that shows this. Even in cases like monkeys recognizing themselves una mirror, no animal seem to go past that and be aware of the future like we do.

> discerning of good and evil Humans don't have such a capacity. The notions of 'good' and 'evil' have historically been in flux and went through many huge changes. Modern humans consider the typical behaviors of past humans as 'evil'. Vikings - rape after conquering is good. People today: that's evil. India until 2 generations ago - arranged marriage is good. Today that's evil. Homosexuality - has oscillated many ti…

All you are saying is that we do make such distinction, only that it does not stay the same across time.

Is there any other animal that does this?

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#117

Post by 127 »

rtpg wrote: post #86
meri_dian wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In each of those categories we're far and away the best. I really don't understand this feeling that humans need to be modest or that describing ourselves as special is wrong. We are special. I think among some people that are frustrated with the human world for whatever - either personal or abstract - reason, there's a feeling of misanthropy that colors their thinking, and so they try to belittle humanity.

I bet a little bit of it in the modern world is rationalization for eating and generally mistreating animals.

I believe that's pretty much it. I remember going fishing with my uncle as a kid and I was disturbed what I was doing to these animals but my uncle told me that fish can't feel pain. I didn't believe it then, and even less now.

To combine the eating of other animals, a rational brain and a mind at peace, you need some amount of self deception. Without it, you can only pick two.

For evolutionary reasons, it's obvious why eating meat is very beneficial. Today, it might not even be necessary for good health.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#118

Post by DrBazza »

The sixth referenced paper:

Bird, R. B., D. W. Bird, B. F. Codding, C. H. Parker, and J. H. Jones. 2008. The “Fire Stick Farming” Hypothesis: Australian Aboriginal Foraging Strategies, Biodiversity, and Anthropogenic Fire Mosaics. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 105:14796–14801. Crossref, PubMed, Google Scholar

Not quite an aptronym, but close.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#119

Post by DeusExMachina »

nkoren wrote: post #74
DeusExMachina wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are the only mammal with consciousness, which leads to knowledge of the future and the discerning of good and evil. Despite the fact that we still don’t understand the least about how consciousness arises in our brain, we are nonetheless the only animal that shows this. Even in cases like monkeys recognizing themselves una mirror, no animal seem to go past that and be aware of the future like we do.

Apes are demonstrably aware of the future: https://www.livescience.com/2620-humans-apes-plan.html And also demonstrably have a sense of morality: http://edition.cnn.com/2013/01/19/health/chimpanzee-fairness...

Yes, chimps dictators don’t fare well. That’s not what I meant.

Chimps don’t have a complex set of morals about which they discuss and evolve with time. I didn’t say we know for sure what is good or what is not. But we can abstract the concepts and evolve our morals. Chimps will never get to debate about gay marriage or other “chimp” rights.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#120

Post by CNJ7654 »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #70
robotresearcher wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you'll call that difference 'consciousness'. OK. Meanwhile, I found a great termite city where termites have put aside their differences and work towards common goals together. Also coral. Their city is a thousand kilometres long.

I'm not saying that difference is called anything in particular but I can expect wildly different results from interacting with a city than I can from a mound of coral or a termite nest. Don't be so disingenuous with these ideas of abstract equivalence. Yes humans are arrogant sods but there is some sort of reason or reasons (that are likely not to be purely environmental) that have resulted in this outcome where we'…

It sounds like you're confusing conciousness with intelligence, which are two separate concepts entirely
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